How to deal with different parenting styles with Adam Angel

Episode Summary of “How to deal with different parenting styles with Adam Angel”

Welcome to this episode of The Communicate & Connect Podcast, where we tackle the ever-relevant topic of how to deal with different parenting styles. In today’s conversation, host Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky is joined by Adam Angel, a specialist in supporting new dads and an advocate for thoughtful, collaborative parenting approaches. This episode is particularly significant for military families, who often face unique challenges and transitions.

Adam begins by sharing his personal journey into fatherhood during the pandemic, which led to his development of a supportive group for new dads. Throughout the discussion, Adam and Dr. Polinsky explore the factors that contribute to varying parenting styles, including cultural backgrounds, childhood experiences, and personal values. They emphasize the importance of understanding child development stages and how this knowledge can bridge gaps between differing parenting philosophies.

Together, they provide actionable advice on leveraging common goals to unite parenting efforts, such as focusing on long-term outcomes like resilience, empathy, and independence in children. The conversation centers around enhancing the parent-child relationship while navigating conflicts that often arise from different views on parenting. Adam shares valuable insights into the necessity of open communication between co-parents, encouraging listeners to engage in constructive dialogues that can lead to mutual compromise and understanding.

In a society where parenting can be an isolated endeavor, Adam advocates for the importance of maintaining a supportive network, which can greatly enrich the parenting experience. This episode is a must-listen for parents looking to improve their relationship dynamics and discover effective strategies for dealing with different parenting styles.

Whether you’re part of a military family or simply navigating the daily challenges of parenting, tune in to learn how to enhance communication and connection in your family life while successfully dealing with differing parenting styles.

Guest Speaker Bio – “Adam Angel”

Adam Angel is a highly experienced clinical social worker with over 15 years of dedicated service in the mental health field, specializing in working with youth, adults, and families. A licensed social worker, Adam has honed his expertise in areas such as postpartum mood and anxiety disorders and developmental trauma. His journey in the realm of social work began with an undergraduate degree from the University of Maryland, followed by a Master of Social Work (MSW) from the prestigious Howard University.

During his career, Adam Angel has made significant contributions to the nonprofit sector, where he facilitated a variety of support groups, including those specifically designed for men. This experience provided him with a deep understanding of the unique challenges faced by different demographics, enabling him to offer tailored and effective therapeutic interventions.

In a recent chapter of his life, Adam encountered a family situation that led him to reassess his professional commitments. Faced with the need to be by his wife’s side during a critical time, he made the commendable decision to leave his job and transition into a minimal private practice. This move was driven by his desire to prioritize caring for his family during an uncertain and precarious period, illustrating his resilience and adaptability in the face of life’s challenges.

Adam Angel resides in Silver Spring with his beloved wife, two children, and their dog. Balancing his personal and professional life, he embodies the qualities of dedication, compassion, and expertise that are vital in the field of social work. His story is not only one of professional success but also of personal sacrifice and unwavering commitment to family, echoing the experiences of many who strive to juggle work and personal obligations.

Visit his website here at Adam’s counseling practice and parenting groups with Dad’s with Wisdom.

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Take the free Relationship Pattern Assessment to discover what pattern may be keeping you stuck and learn what to focus on next.

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Episode Transcript for “How to deal with different parenting styles with Adam Angel”

This podcast is sponsored by Communicate and Connect Counseling, where we have a team of therapists who provide individual couples and family therapy services, all tailored to meet the needs of military and veteran families. To learn more about our services, visit www.communicateandconnect.com.

Welcome to the Communicate and Connect podcast for Military Relationship with your host, Elizabeth Polinsky, a military marriage counselor. If this is your first time listening to the Communicate and Connect podcast, please take a second to go, rate, review, and subscribe to make sure you get all our future episodes. We also really want to know what it is you love about our podcast. And if for some reason you’re not loving it, we want to know that too, because we’re committed to providing the best quality content to help you improve your relationships.

Adam Angel [00:00:57]:

Foreign.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:01:01]:

You’re listening to episode 62, How to Deal with Different Parenting Styles with Adam Angel. Adam, I’m so excited that you’re here. We were just talking about it, but I don’t have kids, and so things related to parenting are probably the area that I’m not the most helpful for couples. And so many military families do have kids, and they have to navigate all these transitions with kids. So I’m excited to have you here to talk about parenting. Maybe you could just tell the audience a little bit about you and kind of what you do with parents.

Adam Angel [00:01:35]:

Thank you, Liz, and thank you for inviting me and happy to talk a little bit about the work I’ve been doing. About four years ago, when all of us went home during the pandemic, my son was born 10 days later, March 25th.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:01:47]:

Wow. Timing.

Adam Angel [00:01:49]:

Yeah, right? We actually rushed it because we were afraid I wouldn’t be able to be by my wife’s side. So we were like, okay, maybe we’ll even like, push the date forward and such, which is rough. But we were happy, obviously, that everything worked out. And that kind of led me on this about like six months of trying to balance work, which a lot of people did. And we were all suffering. But I left my job and went into private practice very, very minimally because I wanted to keep taking care of him. We didn’t, you know, so much so precarious at that time. We had no idea what was going to happen.

Adam Angel [00:02:17]:

So what ended up being like the best year, you know, it was just so joyful that I got that time with him. What an irony, right? And a lot of parents I’ve talked to have described it that way. So at that time, I was also thinking, okay, as part of my private practice, maybe I do something for fathers Literally that thought was very limited. I was like, I’ll do a group or whatever.

It’s like, you know. So meanwhile I was like just focused on training, getting my skills up and all that stuff. So long story short, I ended up connecting with the Breastfeeding center of Greater Washington in D.C. and since then, what started as a new dad support group with them, which I’m still in partnership with them, became the new dads group.

Adam Angel [00:02:55]:

Then dad’s groups that were like one hour sessions to get them ready for the birth. And then these therapy groups which I call dads 2.0 because it’s like part pierce of support, part parenting, sometimes ideas etc that are shared, but then also sort of a deep dive stuff that we get into. So that’s actually been the most popular of the groups, which is really as surprising to me as it may be to you.

I have like several of them that run in like these five or six guys that meet weekly in the evenings and sometimes during the day. And it’s, man, it’s just like a really fulfilling kind of work that I’ve been doing since like on the side of like my individual work that I do as well. And anyway, so that’s kind of like where I am with my work with it. And of course we have some military families that I serve, a number of them actually, just because we’re in the D.C. area.

Adam Angel [00:03:38]:

And yeah, that’s part of the culture here. So.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:03:41]:

Yeah, that’s so amazing that you’re doing that, Adam. Well, again, my knowledge is limited because I don’t actually have kids, but I have a lot of friends who have a lot of kids. And there, it seems like there’s so many support services for new moms. I just haven’t even ever heard of something like a support group for new dads. And I’m thinking that’s so amazing. I’m sure a lot of people would really love something like that.

Adam Angel [00:04:05]:

Yeah, it’s definitely growing. But like, we’re aware women’s perinatal health was 20 years ago. So I presented at the Postpartum Support International Conference this last summer. I have several amazing colleagues who’ve been doing this work for some time that are in the men category. We’re building on the work of women who’ve been doing this for so long. And for every guy that comes in, like there’s usually like 10 that are going to a pace group. So it’s still like not where we want to be. I mean it should be that there’s so many.

Adam Angel [00:04:32]:

And for every man that wants one. And I think more and more men do. Just kind of like been more and more normalized. These are virtual groups right now. And I think part of that is because it’s. Some of this is happening sort of on the ground. The guys are putting it together for themselves, but from like a more systematic way. I’m needing to like, you know, get more and more guys involved to be doing it in a sort of like in person spaces from all over.

Adam Angel [00:04:53]:

It’s like really something that’s growing and it’s vastly grown in the last four years. I’m really happy about it.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:04:59]:

Yeah. Well, maybe I’m gonna just do like a little plug for you right here because I know you’re in Maryland, but you’re licensed also in Virginia and, and D.C. and that’s where a lot of like, we’re communicating connect Counseling is in Virginia and there’s tons of military. And I’m just thinking like so many people could benefit from those groups.

Adam Angel [00:05:19]:

Yeah, absolutely. Be happy to accommodate them.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:05:22]:

Yeah.

Adam Angel [00:05:23]:

You say it’s something that one of the guys, one of the military dads that I’ve worked with was like, can we do this for just military dads? Because I’d be like a separate group. I’m like, that sounds great. My dad is, you know, former military and just something that I appreciate and support.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:05:34]:

I would love to hear about that. Like an all military new dads group. Well, I know that our topic is really on parenting styles and so I was hoping you could talk a little bit about parenting styles and why there are even differences maybe between couples who are. Well, I guess I was thinking, you know, it’s like money, sex and kids that are the big clashing points for couple conflict. And so I’m thinking part of the kids conflict is around this idea of like we have different ideas around parenting. Maybe you could share a little bit about what you know about that that I might not know.

Adam Angel [00:06:11]:

Yeah. I think first of all, we’re all just different. Right. I always say when you go and do any work with anyone, once you combine two people, you have two different intentions to potentially two different views of how things are going to look, all of these things. And any group project, people know there’s different challenges and there’s different benefits for that. We just start there. We’re two separate people and we’re coming together to do this very long term project and it’s very personal. And so we have that as like one number two is we grow up because we’re different.

Adam Angel [00:06:42]:

We grew up with different cultural norms. We might be from the same town, same neighborhood, everything, and most likely we’re not. And it’s like that said, you have a different culture based on what your family believes and their values, and then what you learned implicitly or explicitly, meaning, like what was actually said to you or what you knew you couldn’t say or couldn’t do.

All of these things, there’s some part of it like, oh, I’m appreciative of this for my family and there’s things that we’re like, I really don’t know about that. And some of it’s not even examined, right? We haven’t examined it fully. And until our kids say some things and we’re like, oh, I would never do that. And then we sound like our parents, right? So I think the first and foremost is to recognize and like, have an appreciation for them. We are both different.

Adam Angel [00:07:24]:

And this is challenging and it requires an introspection on our own first and to take stock of like, okay, what values was I raised with? I can be proud of those and even have these values and say to myself, okay, I do want my kid to be resilient. I do want my kid to have confidence. But like, what is it the way that I got to this resilience and confidence and maybe I have now and maybe there’s some things that I have that I don’t want my child to have to go through or I still have not worked through myself.

And so just like all these pieces are part of that self examination. And as you’re doing it, you can also talk it through with your partner and say, your co parent say with them, hey, like, you know, this is how I’m seeing it. This is what I was raised with. Oh, wow, that’s a little different than I, like, I like to give this as an example. Like, I have some reaction to certain things that my wife is like, why is that even like a big deal to you? You know what I mean? So it’s like, oh, it’s not a big deal to you? No, that is not a big deal.

Adam Angel [00:08:21]:

It’s like, okay, well let’s talk about if it is or it isn’t. But I think I was saying that because we said it was some humor in that moment. But sometimes that can be hard to hear from your partner. Like, that’s not normal or, you know, whatever that means.

So I think having these conversations both on your own, but also with your partner really helps build some sense of like, maybe this is something I can let go of and it’s not something I really need to be stand on here. You know, conversations are really helpful. They also build a lot of empathy between the couple or co parents. And so just thinking about that as part of this, I hope I haven’t gone too far out of her.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:08:55]:

No, no, I’m. Well, I’m thinking those conversations could really add to the connection too. It’s communicate and connect, you know. So I’m thinking like this is enhancing the communication between the couple, but it also helps them enhance connection. And in the problem solving part of it, I’m hearing like really to think about what did you learn from your family about the role of parents in parenting and how that should go and what is it that you liked about that that you feel like you want to continue on with and what are things that maybe you’re like, I definitely don’t want to be like my parents in that area.

But then having really direct conversations with your partner to see where those things might align or where there might need to be some sort of compromise.

Adam Angel [00:09:39]:

Yeah, absolutely. And we’re not even getting into like which parenting style again, right. Like we’re not talking to people. We’ll get there in a second. And even that might sound too rigid even saying that. So the exploration, right, which can be done on your own and I think should be done at times in concert with your partner, co parent. I don’t think any of us, all the folks military, they got to be proficient and all of us have to be proficient in whatever we’re doing. We’re going to take the time to think about what’s the context that we’re in.

Adam Angel [00:10:05]:

And the context that we’re in is that the person that we’re guiding, children, they have skills, needs and capabilities that change and are ever changing. And so really getting a sense of that together. Now this sort of begs the next question of like, okay, then what do you do? Say get into the nitty gritty of like this kid is having this reaction and we can say, oh, that’s because they’re three and three year olds have lost their minds.

Right. Like they just are doing what they want to do. But having at least a common understanding, like this is where our kid is. It doesn’t mean that we can’t hold boundaries with our children. We could actually hold different ideas about the interventions and the parenting style is a big part of the conversation here.

Adam Angel [00:10:48]:

But if we don’t even know where their brain is and how they operate, like where their starting at, we’re really not allowing ourselves to really get where we need to be. Meaning, like, we need to know what we’re working with. I like to say, like, there’s a reason we talk about the fourth trimester, because our kids are literally adjusting. When I’m in these new dads, I’m like your child.

The last place they were was like an all inclusive. They don’t have to press a button even, and they can excuse my language, like, you know, shit, eat, you know, enjoy whatever it is. The warmth of the best cozy space in the world. And they suddenly come out and all they need, and all they want to know is, am I as secure as I was just a minute ago? And I need that security.

Adam Angel [00:11:30]:

And as I’m doing that, I’m slowly in this process of becoming more autonomous now. That process and what the expectation of how autonomous they should be is really important along this timeline. Like, what is the expectation? And that is probably going to be a lot of where we’ll see the disagreements. Can they really have more capacity than they have right now?

And so I think most of us would agree a child doesn’t have much capacity once they just come out of the womb. But sometimes in our sleep deprived, challenged, you know, we’re working, we’re trying to make sure ends is met. You know, all these things. Go to bed, go to bed. Whether that’s at four months, you know, 10 months, two years, five years, you know, it can feel very hard.

Adam Angel [00:12:15]:

And it is extremely hard in that moment. I might use the metaphor of the fourth trimester. This is kiss. Kid is just trying to adjust. And the next one might be your child. All they know is they want to explore and what you are is the safe base. And they keep looking back at you for that very reason, because they want to make sure you’re there. They also want to make sure you’re recognizing, you know, to each stage, we’re kind of like grounding it.

Adam Angel [00:12:39]:

No matter what we’re doing in therapy with someone’s individual responses or in group, we’re also noticing, hey, where is the kid? Really? What might be their view here? Yeah, that is very helpful.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:12:52]:

Where are they developmentally? And trying to keep that in mind even in the hard moments when I really wish they were further along.

Adam Angel [00:13:01]:

Exactly, exactly. And it’s also valid that we can feel like, wow, this is so much, and we’ll get into that too. And not to mention all the things that we just said, we’re bringing, right? Like the values and the desires of making sure our kids are going to be the kids we want them to be which, you know, we have to hold that lightly too. It’s quite hard.

So we’re just juggling all these pieces and just a layer one more time. It’s just to think that we are two people trying to do what I think historically humans did in large groups. And it’s like we did this with multiple parents actively getting up early in the middle of the night supporting them. People are like, oh, that was 300 years ago, 500 years.

Adam Angel [00:13:42]:

It’s like, okay, but we’ve been around and our bodies were made for that environment and we’re in this environment. And so how do we support ourselves and our families within this context? And some of that is going to be compassion for ourselves and our partner. And we’ll get into that too. But like, it’s really hard to place when we don’t have as much support as we would have liked. You know, we would like that’s to say the least. I think.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:14:07]:

Well, it’s just an incredibly challenging thing to be a parent. Part of why I’ve avoided it and what I’m hearing you say is that there are a lot of reasons that people come to parenting from different perspectives. Some of it is their own individual makeup. Some of it is the knowledge that they have about child development at different stages. Some of it is cultural and just what it was like in their family along with maybe like a parenting style that there are many factors that go into that where partners could clash.

Adam Angel [00:14:39]:

Yeah. And they all inform what people might say is their parenting approach or parenting style. And many people might not even want to even say that. They’d be like, I don’t have that approach. I don’t have it. It’s fair enough. You know, it’s like, this isn’t an all inclusive. Maybe they don’t.

Adam Angel [00:14:52]:

But I would encourage people to think about almost like a starting place. Like you don’t have to subscribe to a particular person or idea that feels very rigid. But you can say like, hey, you know what? This sort of has a framework that maybe we could agree. And that sort of goes into our next question here is like, how do we do this? You know, And I think part of that is trying to understand one another and what our values are.

I would always start with what we think the outcome is intended to look like. I think a lot of us were like, I like, I’ll talk to many men of 3, 4 and 5 year olds again. We’re in a stage where our children literally have like a completely different view and experience and they’re like, I want my kid to be this. You know, I don’t want them to act like this.

Adam Angel [00:15:34]:

They’re going to act like this forever. If I allow this, this is going to be my child. And all these feelings around that. There’s wisdom there. Parental leadership is important. At the same time, we can hold that both parents are like, yes, that’s what I want. I want this confident, resilient, empathic, relationally smart child. Right.

Adam Angel [00:15:52]:

I think most of us could be like, oh, yeah, that sounds good.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:15:54]:

If partners are clashing around parenting, find the mutual goal that you both have of, like, we both actually want our kids to grow up healthy and resilient and capable and be able to be functioning, independent adults.

Adam Angel [00:16:08]:

That’s right. And so that. That’s one way that you connect as you’re really talking about the connection. Other ones, like, what about me? Like, how do I want my relationship to my child to be? I think it’s very important that we be their parent first. I think most of us can agree with that. Most importantly, that we don’t want to skip parental leadership. But I think when we’re also being caring, we can hold that. Like, sometimes caring looks like saying no.

Adam Angel [00:16:30]:

Right? I think that’s what I’m trying to get at there.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:16:32]:

I guess I’m finding myself curious because I’m thinking about a couple of couples that I’ve worked with where they have clashed around parenting. And I think they both had the same goals, but there were differences in, like, what boundaries should we have with the kids? And so I’m wondering if couples are coming from really different places around a topic, how could they find some sort of compromise and common ground to find a way forward if they’re really quite on opposite ends?

Adam Angel [00:17:02]:

I think that first part, what I was already saying, which was like, okay, we know what we want the kid to turn out. Like, we also know that there’s a way that we might want our partner and ourselves to relate to our child through love and empathy. And that part is sometimes the challenge is like, okay, well, I don’t speak like that, or I don’t talk like that, or that’s not how I think it should look like they should just respond to me versus, like, you know, do what I say or whatever it is.

And that’s a very common thing that comes up. But I think there’s a way that we have to go into, like, does this work? There has to be some level of, like, umbrella agreement that says, I don’t like the term gentle parenting, but I do Appreciate that this particular person who says they’re a gentle parent or something like it is saying that, like, boundaries are really important, and that’s actually what your partner might say. Oh, that actually is gentle parenting.

You might slowly come to realize, oh, these, like, labels and fears around what our children might turn out to be or you don’t, like, are actually unfounded. And, like, coming together to have this conversation saying, like, okay, you know what? What we can do here is we can all agree if they run into the street, we’ll pull them out of the street and start there.

Adam Angel [00:18:12]:

It’s like both of us will grab that kid and yank them out of the street. Not because of any other reason for safety and health consideration. Yeah, and this is a really good one. It’s like what I always say is, like, is it a safety and health consideration? And work backwards. Some people will say, well, they have to eat their food. They’re going to sit down, you’re going to finish your meal. Right? Another person’s like, you don’t have to force them. They’re not hungry.

Adam Angel [00:18:32]:

They’re saying, we have to listen to their bodies. That’s another parent, right? And let’s just imagine they don’t eat the food. Is this a health and safety issue? And they can say, well, yeah, they’re not eating their food. I once heard this is a great person in the area, actually, she’s in Maryland, who does some stuff on nutrition, colors on Instagram, mom, who’s also amazing nutritionist, etc. She says it’s not what they eat in a meal, it’s what they eat in a week. And just noticing how people react to that, it’s like, oh, yeah, well, that makes sense. But I was, like, freaked out. My wife was more on this.

Adam Angel [00:19:02]:

My sense of, like, I grew up with, like, you finish your meal. You mean, like, no dessert till after you eat the vegetables? All that stuff. I remember hiding my broccoli. All that stuff. You know, feeding the broccoli to the dog. That’s, like, cliche, but true. And when I think about it now, I laugh at it because, like, now what I’ve seen and was open to is this. The openness to this.

Adam Angel [00:19:22]:

That’s I was trying to get at. Like, my wife is like, okay, let’s look at this and see this philosophy. See this idea? Does this even resonate with you? What now we do is we follow generally this idea of lack of pressure and we’re not perfect, right? But, like, overall, they don’t eat what they need in a week. Then we’re not doing something. Right. But in a particular meal, it’s like, okay, lessen the pressure. The kid feels that. And then the pressure of the meal goes down.

Adam Angel [00:19:43]:

And what we do is this is based on the model is that, you know, you’re introducing one safe food that they usually eat or always eat. A food that maybe they eat sometimes in a food that’s new. And then like, every time there’s a meal, you kind of, like, put a little bit of that, and it’s like, okay. And then the kids like, I’ll try this and maybe that you reintroduce it a few times.

I’m not trying to get into the super details of this, but the bottom line is that I was, like, not open to this idea first included having the quote unquote dessert, which is now just a part of our meal. We’re not going to put that on the feta. Sleep, just eat. And you’re like, oh, they’re definitely gonna eat their dessert right away.

Adam Angel [00:20:16]:

And, you know, many times they have. Guess what they did after they had the dessert. They ate their food. And they also don’t always eat the dessert first. Nothing that matters to me. I was like, oh. I was open to the possibility. I don’t know how.

Adam Angel [00:20:29]:

I can’t remember now, but maybe I put up a little bit of a fight. I’m sure I did. And I know my parents saw it. I was like, what the heck are you doing? And that was also triggering for me, like, oh, my parents don’t think that I’m doing a good job. You know, like, yes.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:20:42]:

Oh, my gosh.

Adam Angel [00:20:43]:

Yeah. You know, at least a lot of men and tends to be. But it’s not just the men tend to be like, I want to make my kid into someone who’s resilient, who can handle things, who can survive in this world. And you’re right. You’re like, that is necessary. The question is when and how. And the when is the developmental piece. Right? Is my kid ready for this level of intensity right now? Like, can they deal with that? Sometimes they don’t have a choice.

Adam Angel [00:21:07]:

My kids went into Covid. You know, my daughter got ripped out of her. A lot of her. Her pre K, which was extremely hard. And I remember being like, this is really gonna. And I was worried and all these things. And she’s fine. She’s resilient.

Adam Angel [00:21:20]:

And there’s things that lasted for a while with that. It was very hard. And also, we didn’t have a choice. But if we have a choice around Some of these things to say. Maybe we could try a different way here. Maybe yelling at your kid. And I say this, not proud. Then all of us have these moments where we are going to anger for our kids.

Adam Angel [00:21:37]:

Anger because it brings out something in us that usually we were given when we were young. And so my response or many parents response to that kind of a tantrum can be punitive and come after them. And it’s like, you know, get it together essentially. Like, yeah, but it’s. It’s really us. As many dads have said in groups, like, I was having my own tantrum. And we’re saying that light. That’s not like a self criticism.

Adam Angel [00:22:00]:

Sometimes we do have our own. You know, we have a bad day. Sometimes we have our own tantrums even without the kids there. But that stuff matters. Your kids looking at you and it’s like, you didn’t put broccoli. You’re like, you told me to put broccoli. You said you liked. Yeah, but I meant it on this part of the plate.

Adam Angel [00:22:16]:

And it’s like, what the hell are you talking? But you know, when you come in from a developmental standpoint, it’s like they have a vision of how it’s going to be. Right. They literally are like, oh, like, oh, I can’t wait till I sit down and I have this workout. Exactly. And then they, like, they see it. It’s like, didn’t work out as they planned. And what they’re going through is a grief process. They’re like, oh, wait a minute.

Adam Angel [00:22:36]:

This is shock, disappointment, anger. You know, just. They’re going through it real quick. And you’re like, I did everything. Do you know what I do for you? Okay, we’re going through our own. That wasn’t supposed to happen. I did everything I was supposed to. Our grief right now we’re in a parallel process with our kids.

Adam Angel [00:22:52]:

It’s challenging, but once you know what’s happening, there’s at least this percentage of that changes in the family. And when you have your partner on board, even more so. And then when you have a group of men that are supportive or women.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:23:03]:

Or however you identify other people.

Adam Angel [00:23:06]:

Tribal support. Exactly.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:23:08]:

So I think how I’m taking in what you’re sharing is that I can really think about the values and I can hold that as part of my goal is like the target that I want to get to. But maybe I can let go of some of the really concrete details of how I think we should get to that destination. Yeah, I can let go of. You have to eat all of your food. And I can focus on making sure you get all of the needed food groups in a week.

The parents together can be creative, trying to work with the kids developmental level. Well, but if you focus on this is the outcome that we’re both trying to get to, and you’re open to the creativity, then that will help you get back together out of the conflict as parents and back together in the sort of teamwork to move forward.

Adam Angel [00:23:53]:

Yeah. And I think the reason you hear me talking for endless amounts of time as you’re asking questions, because it’s not simple. I’ll work to, like, make this more 1, 2, and 3. But ultimately, like, that’s a part of it. And there’s also all these parts that involve our own view of how we’re good enough as parents. And that’s really the most common underlying message for that. People are telling themselves, I’m not doing my job as a parent. And just some.

Adam Angel [00:24:17]:

One of my great teachers in this work in psychology and stuff like that, he’s either, like, you know, say to a parent that they’re not good at their job, and you’re basically poking the most sore place they’re in a shame.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:24:28]:

Right. Like, so much.

Adam Angel [00:24:31]:

Yeah. That people will put on themselves. And a big part of what we talk about in the groups are how we might be allowing that in. And I say that with a lot of compassion. I’m not saying that, you know, people are actively trying to shame themselves, but there’s a way that, you know, for us, as part of our own ways, that we’ve adjusted in our childhood.

One of the most common ways kids almost always adjust is to parents that are just trying to do their best, but they may not allow certain things in our lives. And we will say, you know, my parent is not open to this. And that means that, like, obviously there’s nothing wrong with them because as a child, there’s nothing that can be wrong with your parents.

Adam Angel [00:25:04]:

Parents. Not as a small child, especially because it’s too scary to be led in a life where you’re completely dependent on your parents. And if they don’t have your best interests in mind. So you say to yourself as a child, oh, wow, I must be the problem. And they shame themselves. Children will always shame themselves and adjust themselves. And so we continue these strategies into our adulthood until we challenge them and say, hey, you know what? I don’t need to shame myself. This is freaking hard to do this just to raise children.

Adam Angel [00:25:29]:

It’s just hard. It’s always been hard but it’s harder. I think there is a way that we may put too much pressure on ourselves. That’s a big thing that we’re seeing in this current culture, is that there’s a way that we’re like, oh, I’m supposed to be perfect parent, and I’m supposed to keep up with the Joneses, but not in a financial way, but from an emotional way.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:25:48]:

And doing just the two of us without all the support that previous generations had.

Adam Angel [00:25:53]:

Exactly. Or with two people working with two people and working and. Right. So you’re naming all these structural problems and they’re supposed to end up this, like, perfect person. They’re likely going to be sort of an improvement on you and your wife. So version. Because you guys are putting this time work. If you listen to this podcast, you’re doing something so, like, that’s great, but it’s also like, you have to hold some of this a little lightly.

Adam Angel [00:26:14]:

You’re not going to be the only one who’s raising your child and includes first and foremost, your co parent. And they’re a little different than you. And like, you married them or you decided to have a child with them, one or the other, you know, all that. And that means that some of them is going to be like, someone else and they’re going to be. They’re a separate being. And that’s hard to hold. But, you know, we think about our childcare workers and we use this word, childcare workers, they’re are also parenting our kids. Take that in.

Adam Angel [00:26:43]:

Like, most important of all other things, when you give your kid over to these places, like, what is it that you’re looking for ultimately? Like, does this person love my child? Right. Like, includes our school teachers and all this. That is the most base. And they don’t have that. You don’t have anything else because they’re also parenting them when you’re not there. In its own way. Right. So that’s what we are also asking of our co parent.

Adam Angel [00:27:03]:

Because there are moments. I don’t feel the love for my kids in certain moments. Right. We can all admit that there’s moments or where we’re like, we would like to tell everyone that we don’t feel that way. But you can see it and sense it, and your kids can sense it. This is one of those moments where you say to your co parent or partner, hey, I got this. Or I can step in or figure out ways to talk through. That’s really one of the harder ones.

Adam Angel [00:27:28]:

Like, how do you step in for each other? But one of the ways to do that is to say, like we can pull the boundary and not be, you know, raging at our kids. And that’s not always easy. Easier said than done when our kids are acting outside of like any normal behavior, which is what a three or four, five year old do. Normal for them, but not normal for us. Right. So it’s, it’s quite difficult to do that. But that is piece that I think you were getting at. Like we are parenting just the two of us instead of in a larger group.

Adam Angel [00:27:54]:

But also the expectation is so high, you know, so it just really puts all this pressure to be this perfect parent, you know, whatever Instagram says.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:28:05]:

It takes me back to your comment earlier about self compassion because when I think about a lot of the couples that I’ve worked with where parenting was part of the primary conflicts that they were having, it was just really so clear that both of them would feel that shame. They would feel that like, I’m not a good parent. And if you disagree with my point, you must think I’m not a good parent.

And I really want to do it this way because I want them to be healthy and resilient. But, oh, your idea is different. So maybe you think I’m not a good parent. And then all stuck in the shame. And so I really am appreciating just like the recognition that this is incredibly hard, hard.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:28:44]:

And that there’s going to be a need for self compassion for yourself and for your partner.

Adam Angel [00:28:49]:

Yeah. And, and there’s also a lot of answers to. I was listening to this and I was thinking, I hope people are like, oh man, I don’t want to be a parent. That’s so difficult. Or like, I’m screwed up, my kid’s only six months. Here’s the thing, there are answers and some of them are concrete. And that’s what I have hope here. So one of them is ritualization.

Adam Angel [00:29:08]:

It’s like what has worked for my family, that you’re going to find answers for yourself and other people will find answers for themselves is for example, I finished my day, my work day, it’s like, okay, I need to turn my family hat on and like actively do so. And that means especially when I’m in a place where I’m like, it’s not easy for me. Like, this may be relatively easy because I’m talking to you about parenting and I’m going into it.

Right. But in a moment, most of the people listen may not be doing this kind of work. And so it’s like, how do we Transition and let that go whatever else is before because that come in the feelings of challenges of worth. Maybe we’re writing ourselves about something from work or our partner or whatever, and we come in and that impacts the whole family. And this was a topic just this week on one of the guys.

Adam Angel [00:29:52]:

Like, how do I not let this bleed into like my partner is coming in brooding. Sometimes it’s okay to say to them, hey, like you need more time, go take. Because it’ll be better maybe for me to take care of these two kids while you get better than to impact them me. But saying that from a place of empathy because we’ve all had those moments. That’s an example of an intervention. Another one, you might be setting your kid up for failure. My kid always hits us with my other kid. Yeah, that’s a normal thing.

Adam Angel [00:30:18]:

Because they don’t want to be replaced. Okay. Both parents need to take their kids separately for one on one time. Maybe the most important intervention there is take time with one child, one parent, and just deepen your relationship. And we haven’t gotten to some of the good stuff around military families, but I was thinking about this, you know, with deployments, it’s like how hard and disruptive this can be. And also our kids are resilient. And one of the ways to support that resilience is by deepening the relationship. And so thinking about you’re coming back in to a system that’s operating sort of in this one way.

Adam Angel [00:30:50]:

And not to say that you’re parenting in a different way from afar and now you’re coming back and you have to reintegrate. And almost like there is some catching up in relational. And so it’s like now you’re here. How do we both connect it? And I’m sure there may be feelings of guilt or you know, all the things that show up wanting to just have fun. But kids need. Sometimes we want to have fun with them, but they still need to be parented and held boundaries. It’s tough, very tough. But one of the answers to that, no matter what, is just deepen into the relationship one on one.

Adam Angel [00:31:23]:

But prepare yourself for that. That prepare with figuring out what is it that is going to actually deepen your relationship activity wise. What does that look like? What does that mean for you? What would they appreciate? But you also know will bring you guys together, those kind of things, especially in transition moments. That’s not something that isn’t true for our family. But what is true is like sometimes my daughter might be having a transition to a new School year or some challenges at school. And I’ll be like, okay. She will be like, we should have already thought of it. Like, we sometimes forget the things, you know, right.

Adam Angel [00:31:52]:

It’s like, okay, Saturday, I’m with her in the morning, then after we switch and that, like, one on one, you are all that matters to me in my life. Your kid is going to be like, oh, oh, yeah, I’m seen. Because that’s what they want. Which they’ll tell you all the time, especially as they get older. From the very right. It’s like, don’t tell me what to do. Can you tie my shoe? But no, don’t do it too much. This tension between autonomy and security and the security that they’re getting from you when you’re like, I just.

Adam Angel [00:32:22]:

Just pouring yourself into them is going to be worth everything.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:32:26]:

I’m thinking about attachment theory right now. And I know we need to, we need to start wrapping up, but I’m thinking about, I could see how that would really help them with the transition because then when she goes to school, if she’s feeling stressed, she has the memory bank of feeling safe with you that she can then rely on to help her feel safe in the new environment.

Adam Angel [00:32:47]:

Absolutely. It’s attachment orientation. That’s definitely a big part of my work. And then, you know, I think we were just talking about the co parenting relationship, how hard it is. Like, you come in, you obviously want to do this for your child, but you also got to get on the same page with your partner. And we talk about weekly meetings and there’s some logistical things that you should be doing.

And we already talked about the overall parental way of outlook, but that requires regular checkup because the reality is, like, our kids change if they need different things. And things come up like, oh, they just talked to me about death or talked to me about sex, or just had a tantrum and it’s like, okay, so we need to reorganize here.

Adam Angel [00:33:22]:

Or maybe something’s going on with you. And it’s like, okay, we need to reorganize. Like, what’s going on with you and how do we keep this and support one another? Like, points where you really need to dive in with your relationship, not just as a parent, but and if you’re together as a couple, and that’s just a co parent, your romantic relationship, your friendship, so that you can have the capacity to like, stick together as a team when it’s really challenging.

It definitely strikes me with a lot of like, compassion when I think about, like, what it Means to have to be deployed and come back and parent. And I’m not the world’s expert on that, but I can imagine that it would be more challenging than average by a good amount. Just because I know at every transition is hard, but it doesn’t mean that there’s no answers.

And I would say the last thing I was thinking when I was saying that there’s things to do here is there’s the working on yourself, there’s the working on your relationship, and there’s the we’ve already mentioned the going in depth and building your relationship with your child. I would say there’s also, like, actually really good interventions of what to say.

Adam Angel [00:34:22]:

So it’s like I could have all the intention in the world, which is the most important thing. It’s like, if I say I need you to do something, but I see it in a way that shows love and caring, but I still hold the boundary that’s worth so much. But there’s also some really good people that know how to talk and have made these interventions. Really, like, these, like, smart things to do. I don’t want to go and brush my teeth. I could say, you got to brush your teeth. And I could have the compassion I could be in myself. Yeah, I don’t want to.

Adam Angel [00:34:49]:

So it’s like, okay, I’m using a Dr. Becky one. I was thinking, it’s hard being a kid, people telling you what you have to do. I remember that when I was a kid. You do? Yeah, yeah, sure. It was always, like, people telling me what to do at school. Then I came home, my parents telling me what to do. Yeah, I can imagine it’s hard for you when you hear that.

Adam Angel [00:35:05]:

It is. Yeah. It stinks. I’ll tell you what. How about for 30 seconds, you tell me what to do? In fact, just don’t tell me to jump on one foot and jump around and yell, yeah, do that, do that, do that. You should do that. So for 30 seconds, maybe this is like when she was 4, she would tell me to do that. She got such a kick out of.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:35:29]:

It and picturing it in my mind, and it’s.

Adam Angel [00:35:33]:

Yeah, just made up there. Just make sure they don’t tell you to eat anything or, you know, certain. There’s some rules that Dr. Becky said, so credit to her, big time. Immediately after that, I was like, oh, man, that was crazy. I was like, you ready to go brush teeth? Yeah, let’s go brush teeth. I’ll tell you what, you can even brush my teeth. It was kind of like anything that would work.

Adam Angel [00:35:50]:

There’s no one intervention that works in any situation. No, no. Great catchphrase. But all of these things put together with two people and one of them, usually at least one of them can be sane. Yeah. Their feelings, you know, you start to get a little more fluid, but then you’re just like, okay, we can do this. You know, especially these transitions. So much transitions earlier this, these are the most hard transitions for kids or anything that challenges security.

Adam Angel [00:36:14]:

Going to bed, going to school, I’m leaving you by going to sleep. I’m leaving you by going to school. The one to school makes more sense for most people. But going to sleep is the one scariest in many ways or as scary at least. All this, like, you know, that’s a big thing that comes up. It’s like they gotta go to bed because we gotta have a life. We gotta clean up after this. This.

Adam Angel [00:36:33]:

You need to do this. You’re right. There’s nothing wrong with saying what’s true. It’s hard. But saying it to them is different because they will be afraid of you if maybe at certain moments it’s difficult. You know, I’ve been there. And at the same time we can think about how do we intervene in a way that sometimes those things don’t work and you just have to be like, look, there’s nothing else I can do. I can sit here with you while you try to fall asleep.

Adam Angel [00:36:55]:

You know, you run out of those interventions. But I think like, what you have to come to is like personally, individually, what do I want to be as a parent out of the night. And it’s, you know, knowing that you tried your best and did what you could. That’s as much as you can do sometimes, but it’s also like something you can kind of work on as you go through. It’s sort of this. It’s a difficult balance to have this. Like, I know I can do this better. And also I gotta have compassion for myself and my partner.

Adam Angel [00:37:19]:

Yeah, it’s like having a standard too is tough. You know, this is not easy.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:37:24]:

So the way that I’m just coding this in my mind, so I’m thinking like we have focus on the long term outcome that I want, but let go. Love the details of exactly how we have to get there. But then also focus on like preserving the relationship. How can we tap in for each other if we’re overwhelmed? But then also how can I still try to achieve my goal with the child while preserving the relationship that we have together? Yeah, and I liked your Becky intervention Yeah. Is that from a book? I’m thinking like if people want to.

Adam Angel [00:37:56]:

Find that probably the most popular parenting personality the country. She wrote a book called Good Inside and it’s the reason she names that you are Good Inside no matter what. And that means for the parents too. Some of this can land on the ears of not the intervention adventures actually land really well for a lot of the men. But like sometimes some of the language can sound like soft, whatever the words are, but like one of the ones that is just, I think factual. It’s like you’re a good kid having a hard time when you think about that. We’re a good parent having a hard time. This is a difficult time.

Adam Angel [00:38:28]:

And so sometimes it’s just like you have a three year old man. There’s a reason that we have a bunch of names for, for what’s going on there that are for a big consumption, you know. But anyways, it’s tough, it’s tough. So she wrote this book called Good Inside and she has a podcast that’s free and also other things that support groups and stuff like that. She’s great. But again, I splice some of that in into the groups. But the way that I do that is I’m offering. This is an option.

Adam Angel [00:38:53]:

There shouldn’t be a rigidity to, to this. There’s no religiosity to this. I always say, like, what do you and your partner think is the right thing to do? You being on the same page as your co parent is the most important thing going forward. Like talk about when talking about parenting styles, which I think I failed to share quickly, which was like authoritarian, which is more of like what I received when I was child, which was where like a lot of my peers, which is like, I do as I do as I say because I said so.

Which has a place in a certain moment in time and also situational and culturally depending on, you know, especially around safety. But I’ve leaned into more authoritative, which is a lot of the names of things that you hear, like attachment parenting, potential parenting, respectful parent, all this stuff. These are just versions like built on this original idea of like sort of like a dialogue. And some things are not a dialogue, right? Like, and that’s still authoritative parenting.

Adam Angel [00:39:42]:

It’s just knowing that you’re coming from making a decision actively as opposed to from this emotional place of like, he’s not like, this is big words, respect. They’re not respecting. It’s like, okay, well what’s that about for you? You know what I mean? Because like there’s usually something coming up about it. It’s like, oh, my kid’s gonna be this disrespectful kid.

You know, all these things that we go into the future with, serve it in our minds, and then we react that way with anger. Now it may be that they’re disrespectful. And you can say like, hey, that’s not respectful the way you said that, or that’s rude in the way you spoke to me just now. And I’m not gonna be talked to like that.

Adam Angel [00:40:17]:

That. So then what? Right? So then you can say like, you know, like, this is whatever it is that your family’s rules are, but it’s about how you are and what you’re holding while you’re parenting and from what state you want to be in. That’s the therapy part of the group. So, like, how do we get to the state that we want, which we have to name? It’s like, what’s your intention? I would like to have calm in myself. I would like to have confidence in myself when I’m parenting. And that is the most important aspect of all this.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:40:44]:

Great. And so if people were, like, interested in joining one of those groups, how would they get connected with you?

Adam Angel [00:40:50]:

So I have two websites. I have one for, like, the dad stuff, which is dadswith wisdom.com. and then I have one that’s for individual counseling, which is my old name, adamodultherapy.com. so we’ll put it in the show notes or something.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:41:04]:

Yeah, yeah, Click. Yeah.

Adam Angel [00:41:08]:

And I also do some groups for dads that have. Have lost in late pregnancy and early infancy, because, you know that that’s also a big need. And so I direct them to my other website, the individual therapy website, so that if you know someone, you personally are listening, you know, sometimes that’s a really neglected group of people that are not being supported. And so I’m always, like, trying to make sure people know about that too.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:41:28]:

Yeah, we’ll have links to all of that in the show notes. Well, Adam, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I feel like we could talk about this for. For hours and hours and hours. And, like, there’s so many, you know, follow up. Yeah. Well, you can do also a whole podcast, right, just on TikTok, but yeah, so. But I think that this is going to be really helpful to people listening.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:41:53]:

So thank you for being on our show.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:41:56]:

I hope you enjoyed today’s episode. If so, please take a second to go, rate, review and subscribe so you get all of our future episodes. Make sure to check out the show notes to sign up for our free 10 week relationship email course. This email course is really designed for people who are maybe having trouble with communication or connection in their relationship and helping them develop some quick wins right away to start improving it.

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