Attachment Theory and Domestic Violence with Jef Slootmaeckers

Episode Summary of “Attachment Theory and Domestic Violence”

Welcome to Episode 55 of The Communicate & Connect Podcast! I’m your host, Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky, and in today’s episode, we’re diving deep into the complex world of attachment theory and its intertwining with domestic violence, especially within the military context. Joining us is Jef Slootmaeckers, an Emotionally Focused Trainer with ICEEFT and therapist with a profound understanding of the relational dynamics related to domestic violence.

In this episode, we explore the intricate balance between emotional regulation and survival strategies, focusing on the pivotal questions of attachment: “Are you there for me?” “Am I good enough?” and “Do I belong?” Through the episode, Jef and Liz discuss how these questions influence military relationships through the challenging phases of deployment, homecoming, and everyday interactions.

We discuss the cycle of pursuing and withdrawing that many couples experience, emphasizing the unique stressors of military life, and the critical need for boundaries and support in cases of intimate partner violence (IPV). Jef sheds light on the different forms of IPV and the attachment dramas that often escalate conflicts, stressing the importance of deshaming and understanding in therapeutic settings.

Listeners will gain valuable insights into the emotional struggles of military families, the powerful impact of naming and processing emotions, and the hope for resolving conflicts through empathy and connection. Join us as we navigate these sensitive topics and aim to normalize the complexities of military life while offering resources and support for couples in need. Don’t miss out on this enlightening conversation with Jef Slootmaeckers on attachment, love, trauma, and resilience.

Don’t forget to check out our ARE quiz based using the brief accessibility, responsiveness, and engagement scale for further insights into your relationship. Let’s get started!

Guest Speaker Bio – Jef Slootmaeckers

Jef Slootmaeckers is a Trainer with the International Centre of Excellence in Emotionally Focused Therapy (ICEEFT), and is a dedicated professional who stumbled upon his passion by chance. Despite the challenge of completing this episode in his third language, Jef brings a wealth of experience and empathy to his work with individuals, couples, and families battling anger, trauma, and violence.

His journey into this field wasn’t planned; rather, it was an accidental discovery that resonated deeply with him, perhaps rooted in his childhood experiences within his own family. Jef’s genuine commitment to applying EFT (Emotionally Focused Therapy) to help others reflects his lifelong inclination to support and heal those in emotional distress, making a significant impact on many lives. You can get the Dutch version of the book “Fighting for Love” here. It has not yet been translated into English.

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Episode Transcript for “Attachment Theory and Domestic Violence”

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:00:01]:
This podcast is sponsored by Communicate and Connect Counseling, where we have a team of therapists who provide individual, couples, and family therapy services, all tailored to meet the needs of military and veteran families. To learn more about our services, visit www.communicateandconnect.com.

Welcome back to the Communication and Connect podcast. This is episode 55 on attachment theory and domestic violence with Jef Slootmaekers. Hey, Jef, I’m so glad to have you here today. For people who don’t know, Jef is an EFT trainer, and I think everybody knows what EFT is, emotionally focused couples therapy because we’ve talked a lot about it on this podcast. And he is one of the EFT trainers that does a lot of work around intimate partner violence.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:01:09]:
And so I’m really excited that you’re here so we can talk about this and really help, hopefully help give military couples, like, a way forward if this is happening in their relationships. But maybe you could just share a little bit about yourself, Jef, and kind of what you do in this area.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:01:30]:
Yeah. Welcome and hello, Liz. Yes, thanks for the invitation. What to say about me maybe interesting for the listeners, as I just mentioned to you as well, I’m so happy to talk about this, but it will be in my third language. So maybe we need to ask people some forgiveness and some patience about me saying sometimes really strange things with a weird accent. But anyway, what about me?

I think the most important thing is that I’m actually a regular dude who by accident became very passionate about what I’m doing these days, which is applying and bringing eft to couples, families, and individuals who suffer with anger and trauma and violence. And I came to it actually by accident. And later on I thought maybe it isn’t a coincidence that it really hit me and that I became so passionate about it, because now what I’m trying to do as a professional, I think I tried to do that as a little kid too, into when I was in my core family.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:02:46]:
And then after they divorced and I had several kinds of combined families. And it changed always during the time. One of the things that was always there were intense conflicts and anger and pain and unpredictability. That comes a lot with the dynamics of intimate partner violence.

And I think already from very young, I just tried to navigate that and provide the family with as much safety as I could. But that was a hard task to do as a seven year old or a 14 year old or a 16 year old. And then there was a moment I said, I dont ever want to do something like that. And so I just left home, and all of a sudden, I was working with families who were suffering under the same dynamics.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:03:44]:
And then I get really enthusiastic about it, found EFT, became really passionate about it, became a, a supervisor trainer in Belgium. And now for the past 20 years, I’m just really focused on bringing hope to those families who sometimes really suffer under aggressive dynamics. And I try to look for how can anger and aggressive outburst in couples, how can it be related to attachment? And in fact, even loving each other, which sounds a big deal, but it can be two sides of the same coin, having strong conflicts and at the same time still loving each other.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:04:37]:
Yeah, I’m hoping we’re going to go into that more because I’m just thinking about. Well, I have a few thoughts going through my mind. I’m thinking about, my original training in couples therapy was so much like, if there’s violence going on, don’t work on that. Send them to a domestic violence shelter, get them out of the relationship, don’t help the couple be together.

And when I’m, I’m in, well, I guess Facebook groups are such a common thing for military spouses, and so military spouses will just connect on Facebook so much. And often there are posts in these groups about violence that happened. Should I leave? And a lot of the advice is often like, you need to leave. And.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:05:35]:
But I remember from your training, Jef, that a lot of people don’t actually leave, that they stay in the relationship. And I think that, to me, meant that it’s worth helping people when they choose to stay in situations like that.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:05:54]:
Well, yeah, that’s a lot we were just talking about. Yeah, I remember I worked for almost four years in the shelter for women and kids. And what I remember there is that seven to eight out of ten people who came to the shelter returned home within a couple of days or weeks. And then back then, my colleagues, me as a young social worker, they were, I was not even a therapist back then, but they were talking to me, you see, they’re still too dependent and they can break up yet.

And probably back then, we had the rule in the shelter, people can come in like, eight times with the idea maybe they need several rounds before they can finally leave the relationship. And so I was really interested about it. So I started asking those women, like, hey, you’re telling me that you want to leave the shelter and you want to go back. Is it because you’re still too dependent? Is it that you’re too afraid? And you know what? Most of them, they said to me, no, I still love him.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:07:08]:
I miss him. And what I’ve learned rather quickly is that when there was a storm, a relational storm, with big outbursts, with shouting, yelling, calling names, either physical incidents or aggressive behaviors, it’s so impactful that it really scares the hell out of us. Because it’s so scary because you’re fighting with the man or the woman that you really love, and all of a sudden, you get scared by that dynamic, or you get scared by the look in his eyes, or what he or she has been telling to you, or it’s just really such a crack in that foundation of safety, and it scarce, and you don’t want to be there.

So people say, I want to leave. I want to leave in that moment. But most of the time they say, I want to leave those fights. Yeah, but it’s something else that I want to leave the relationship. And one of the things in the field that there has been much discussion about it.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:08:14]:
But one of the things that is really clear in the scientific field of intimate partner violence, that we need to consider at least two forms of intimate partner violence, which also will help to tackle these questions that come with leaving or not. Because when we consider that intimate partner violence is just not always one dynamic, at least there are two.

And we talk about those dynamics as the cold and the warm form. And that cult form is a kind of relational dynamic where it’s not even a dynamic. That’s a kind of relationship where one partner really objectifies and controls the other totally. It’s about power. It’s a dynamic, really, where there’s a lot of use of power because of the power. But that is a total different dynamic.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:09:14]:
Where people get caught in the fights and power dynamics, where they use power because they’re powerless, because they don’t know how to reach each other anymore, because they really don’t know. How can I be a good husband? How can I be a good wife? How can I provide in a good way for my family? I don’t know how I can get my carry my love for you.

How do I can get it across? I don’t know anymore. Or I don’t know anymore how I can be good to you. Because it seems like every day I’m failing. And I’m so overwhelmed with those emotions, drowning in that powerless feeling that I have nothing to hold on to. And the only thing I can do is just fight my way out of that feeling. Then we start seeing power dynamics and the use of power.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:10:20]:
But the motivation is actually an attachment drama. And that’s something totally different than the other form, which is the use of power because of you want to control and have the power over the other one.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:10:38]:
The intentions are really different.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:10:41]:
Yes. Yeah. And I think it’s important because if you consider that distinction, I know it’s a simplification of reality, as always. Right. But then, because I do really believe that with the really cold form where power. Because of the power, I think it’s important sometimes that we help people to leave a relationship and they really need the help to found the boundaries and the safety again and found back the integrity about, hey, me as a self, I don’t deserve to be seen as an object, and I have the right to come up for my own integrity and my own safety.

And so sometimes they really need help. But the interesting piece is that that’s only the smallest form of intimate partner violence because the biggest group, where the biggest group or the biggest form is that other where people get caught in attachment dramas, where they start losing the sense of loving each other and then get caught in fights and don’t know how to deal with it and then get caught in escalations.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:12:10]:
That’s where the anger and aggression takes place. And that needs a different approach.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:12:17]:
Yeah. I’m just thinking what a difficult spot. Like, if there’s violence happening in my relationship to figure that out or to know which version it is or to decide whether or not to leave. But I think you mentioned hope earlier, and I feel like that’s the main feeling I have as we’re talking about it, because I think before it would be like, well, I just have to leave. But now with what we’re talking about, there’s like this other approach. There’s this chance that I could leave the fights, that my partner and I could leave the fights while still being together in our relationship.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:13:09]:
Yeah. And I think that’s one of the missions I have as a therapist and then as a trainer training a lot of psychotherapists, is that we can offer people so much hope if we are more careful with that contraindication. So imagine someone coming to me or with your community or with people, somebody saying, hey, we are suffering.

There’s so many stressful, there’s so many stress layers with, I guess, military people, which I need to say for the audience, too. I’m really not an expert in that we can talk a little less about what aggression and EPV and into the partner violence, and I can talk about attachment and EFT, but I really don’t know how military life looks like. Okay. Because I’m from Europe. I’m from Belgium.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:14:11]:
We only have such a small, small army compared to how it is present in your society. I think most of the listeners would not even be able to imagine that. Okay.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:14:24]:
Yeah.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:14:25]:
So also in my clients or when I work with social services, there are so less military folks here. Okay. So I don’t know. But I did a little bit of the research, and there are some elements that are extra stressors, like the fastest, how fast life can change, long separations being deployed, whether for a mission or for exercises or other things I was thinking about is like, split obligations. Like, or, hey, I want to serve my country and I need to serve my country.

And at the same time, yeah, I want to do good and serve my family, too. But how can we combine them? I think it’s often very demanding and difficult to combine both. One other thing, other thought that I thought of is that in order to survive the changing dynamics and what the military is demanding of soldiers is like spouses functioning as a single parent in order to have at least some predictability, and that is good survival.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:15:41]:
But all those elements combined, they bring in some kind of stress, some attachment related stress. I guess it’s just part of that life, I guess. Although I don’t know how that is from the inside. It isn’t hard to imagine that these layers really activate our attachment questions and needs. And then I’m not even talking about PTSD or after people coming back from a mission and all the things that they’ve been seeing, and it also exercised, I mean, the level of stress, you know, and then that transition back home, it just. It just. It just speaks to the attachment. And you know what? Maybe.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:16:30]:
I don’t know if that would be a good idea, but I really like, if we want to understand something complex of intimate partner violence, I just really like to keep it simple. What if we start from those extra stressors in people’s lives? For me, and just please correct me, because you got more the experience, but for me, it isn’t that hard to imagine that when you’re waiting for your husband to come back home or, and after a mission or after long separation, you’re looking forward to see him or her, but you don’t know how impacted he or she will come back.

Also, in the other way around, when you have been away and under a lot of stress, it just makes sense that you want to go back to a safe place, but youve been away for so long. Will they welcome you? Will they open up the door? Will they just say, hi, dad, were so happy to be home.

And this is where I just briefly, I just travel a lot because of my job, because I travel, which I never thought I would be, but I travel all around the world. So there are moments, time of the year, where Im every week im gone for two or three days. I’m traveling in Europe, I go to another country, do the trainings, and I come back. And some moments I just, I’m away from home, like in a week.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:18:05]:
And every time when I come back, I just long to be back with my kids and my wife and back to my family. But I learned after a couple of years living in that rhythm. Will they welcome me this time because I come back and will they just drop whatever they’re playing with or whatever they’re doing and will they just make time to welcome me or will they be in that kind of mode where they say, yeah, you’re back, but we’re just watching a game and now I’m going to, or watching a movie and I’m going to. In order to have the predictability, it’s easier to live like you’re not here.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:18:44]:
Yeah.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:18:45]:
So that readjustment is challenging, and I’m just talking about me leaving house for doing a training. That’s something completely else than doing a mission.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:18:58]:
Yes. But I think the same dynamic, that it’s easier to be. It can be easier to be a little detached.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:19:10]:
Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:19:11]:
Because you’re going to leave again. And even if I want to reconnect, there’s a push pull feeling I can say for me, of I want to be in that closeness. And I know you’re going to leave. And so there’s another part of me that wants to stay a little emotionally distant.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:19:38]:
Yeah. And that happens in a bi directionality. Okay. From the other part, it’s also, oh, there’s nothing more I want. It’s just to lean into and feel, like, calm and loved and safe again, where I just can, like, lay down the armor. But you know what? In a couple of days, I have to leave again. And that takes so much energy to switch from those modes that maybe we’ll do something in between. And I think there’s nothing wrong with it.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:20:12]:
I think now we’re talking about extra stressors and context, and I think it would be interesting if I would have more time to have listening rounds with your audience here. I think a lot of them would really learn me how it’s just part of life, how it is part of military life, and we’re just addressing a couple of things, but probably there are more of those commonalities that belong to this life, but they would all activate, in a way, the attachment system.

And it just. It’s functional. I mean, what you’re saying about that detached piece is just a way of dealing with it. There’s nothing wrong with it. I mean, you can love your husband, like, big time and still. Yeah, because you love him, you need to sometimes detach yourself, because otherwise you’re too exposed, too vulnerable when the other one is leaving again, and you have to keep on functioning with the kids and all the other things you need to do.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:21:15]:
So that just all makes sense. But what can then happen, and that is probably the audience will know that, too, since you’re making such a wonderful series in a podcast, is that this is where attachment is really interesting and EFT is really informative. How we can get triggered in that duality about longing for and needing reassurance and needing to be, like, really be together, and at the same time need to rely on your survival strategies.

And so it just makes sense that at moments, you just miss each other’s needs. It’s a hard balance, I guess, between reconnecting and then being prepared for the next demand. And so in the midst of that, there is an extra vulnerability for getting caught in attachment teams. And I think, to understand aggression in those warm dynamics that had the dynamic that had nothing to do with power, because of the power, but that has a lot to do with getting overwhelmed and loving each other and at the same time getting caught in anger outwards. First, I think three main questions are key.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:22:44]:
And we can, you know, sue brought them to us with the holy tide. But are you there for me? Is the first? And the am I good enough? Is the other one okay? And I would like to add a third one, which is, do I belong? And because they can, to me, those questions are different kind of doors that we can open to enter the attachment realm, that can help us understand where anger can come from. And depending on which door you take, you will have a different kind of aggression or anger.

So if we take the first door and we just open the door that leads us to the team, are you there for me? I can’t imagine that whether you’re a military spouse or you’re a military man coming back from a mission, I think that context can just really activate that question, like, hey, where are you? You’ve been away, and now you’re coming home. And I need you to be with me. I need you to be accessible, responsive, engaged. I need you to listen to me, I did this all these weeks, this month, I did it all by myself. Now you’re coming home.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:24:12]:
Will you do the grocery? Will do you, the kids, will you do the laundry? Can you please do that? Because I’m exhausted and I need you to be with me.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:24:20]:
Yeah.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:24:22]:
You feel what we know from an attachment perspective. Once that question is active, alive, and our body starts to feel it with all tons of emotions, it just gets us activated. We want to draw the other one’s attention. We hip reactivate, and we make it big. I need you. But imagine that the other one is still in kind of PTSD or in stress or still in the transition. The body is in the home, but the body travels faster than the mind and the emotions because the body is there, but the emotional system is still, like, in a kind of armor, protected. Then you have a body of your.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:25:11]:
Your husband over there, but not emotionally available because he’s still calming down from all the things he or she had to be going through. So the other one will feel you’re not there for me. And then, you know what? We will knock on the door. Hey, where are you? Where are you? Hey. This is you. This is you. And what the other one needs is, most of the time, just so I’m cooling down. No extra mission.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:25:43]:
No new missions. I just want to have a place where I just can be. Feel welcome, where people are there for me, where I can be good, and where I just can really calm down. And now I’m coming in, and all of a sudden, new assignments, a new task.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:25:58]:
Yes, very. What you’re talking about is so common in the homecoming, especially after a deployment. But I find myself thinking like, that same thing happens in the lead up to a separation. Feel like when I know you’re about to leave, one person’s like, their mind starts going to the mission, and the other one is saying, I need you to be here with me before I’m going to lose you for all this time.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:26:32]:
Yes.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:26:34]:
Or even when somebody is gone and there’s, like, a phone call or a Zoom online meeting, similar thing. The mind is on the mission for the military service member, and the spouse can be like, but I need you to be present with me, with me in this conversation. And that those are common conflict points for military.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:27:01]:
Exactly. Exactly. I love this, how you integrate not only the coming back, but also the going away. And I think very interesting is that it hits the same spot. And right now, we are just talking about one. Hey, I need you to be with me, okay? And what people who get bodies. That where that question gets activated, that body gets activated, too. And often what we know from attachment signs and what we know from daily practice is that these people tend to activate and protest against the loss of that connection.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:27:46]:
So they start pointing at, hey, I. This is the time where we have a Zoom meeting, and you’re not here, so you should be here. We only have five minutes, so please be here. You’re not doing it good. You’re not providing and giving me what I need in my attachment need. And that hits the second door, which is also a big attachment team.

The one is, are you there for me? But the other one is, am I good enough for you? Am I good? Am I good enough for you? Am I a good husband? Am I a good wife? Am I a good spouse? Am I. Okay? And this is where I guess one of my reflections was, what about the split obligations? Because as human being, we just want to do good for the ones that are important for us and our country.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:28:36]:
And the military demands us to be 100% ready and good to provide and serve, and at the same time, we really want to serve our family, too. But you know what? That’s the hard thing to do at the same time, because they need different skills. In order to be good in what you need to do in the military, you need to deactivate those elements that you just need to use when you’re at home and vice versa.

So that’s really complicated. Okay? You can’t be too emotionally present in the midst of some of those exercises or assignments. And at home, what they want you to be is to be emotionally present. But how to combine that? Okay, so there is an extra, in the context, an extra vulnerability to be caught up with that question, am I doing good enough for you? And here is another good attachment strategy that we have when we get caught up in. With that question, am I doing wrong to you? Am not doing good enough, is that we just bunker emotionally, and that is so normal.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:29:53]:
It’s as if normal, as we protest, when we hear that attachment question inside. Hey, where are you? Where are you? Where are you? It just really hyperactivates. And when we feel like, I’m not good enough, I’m not good enough, we tend to hide, and that’s what we humans do. And this is where we go from extra vulnerabilities in that military context, which are just extra vulnerable.

But I think it’s, in general, human, leading us to two main attachment teams, getting into alarm, leading to normal self protective moves. And this leads to relational dynamics, because the more the one withdraws or bunker or deactivates emotionally, the more the other one will feel. See, you’re not even there for me. Even when we have this ten minutes before you have to leave, or you’re not there for me.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:30:58]:
And I was waiting for you, like, six months, and now you’re not here after two days. Yeah, even then, you’re not here. So, see, that really gets. And then a kind of dance starts to happen, which sue talks about a lot. And probably your listeners are probably familiar already with that. That typical dance of, like, pursuing, with drawing. And the more the ones try to draw the other one’s attention, the more that comes across as critics. And then the more you need to bunker, the more you bunker.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:31:29]:
And then so on and so on and so on. But how can that attachment drama, which is related to love, right? Because, remember, the main theme is I want you close, but I fight you because you’re not close. Yeah, I want to be good for you, and I’m high because I feel like not giving you what you need, and that is overwhelming. But there’s a lot of love involved.

But it’s that getting the powerlessness feeling of I can’t get you close to me, and I can’t give you what you need creates such an overwhelming fear. And once you get caught in that dynamic and it keeps on coming, coming, coming, and there is extra stress layers, and especially when there’s extra trauma involved. Okay, then that level of stress can turn the body to such a powerless place where you have no longer words to get across what you’re suffering from. You don’t have no.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:32:47]:
There are no words left to say, hey. The way you’re trying to approach me is just. Only letting me feel that I’m worth nothing. I was on a mission. I failed or mission accomplished, but I failed to provide safety to my brothers, and I’m very sensitive to failing. And now I’m coming back home, and I need a place to recover, and I’m still in my bunker. And you’re telling me that I’m failing as a father, too. That can feel like waterboarding.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:33:30]:
Emotionally, when you feel a lot and what happens from your surroundings is they just keep on telling you, it’s not okay, it’s not okay, it’s not okay. And you have no words left to let the other one know, hey, this feels like a waterboard. And you need to stop with giving me that feeling because I’m drowning so often. Lashing out, pushing away, leaving.

Give the other one a push to create some distance from that feeling is the only thing you can do. And that’s what we call then in the little roadmap that we have in understanding aggression, the aggressive dynamic where I’m talking about pushing the ways, what Levin and I tend to call the distance seeking aggression is where people get really overwhelmed with that feeling of whatever I do. Nothing is good. Nothing is good.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:34:37]:
It feels like being pulled underneath the water where you can’t breathe. You know, you can hold your breath for a very long time, but there is every, I mean, you can be trained and skilled in keeping your emotions steady, but everybody needs to breathe at a certain point. And you’re very vulnerable to the words and the remarks that the loved ones throw at you.

They go right through your armor, right to your heart. And so I think that’s a big, vulnerable place. And the only way of dealing with it is just to, like, say, stop. The more you use that distance seeking mode, the more the other one is feeling left alone. So the more they start fighting and also they can become, like, really powerless.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:35:40]:
You come home and there’s such a big bunker, and I want to get through you. I want to get through you. So I’m going to do whatever it takes to get through you. This is where I see spouses beating up big man’s chest, punching, punching, punching, beating, throwing with things, which is a physical act of aggression in a way, but it’s not that they want to hurt the other person. It’s like, I want to crack your armor. I want to crack your bunker. I want to crack your defense. And with words, nothing seems like nothing gets across.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:36:20]:
So I have to use a lot of power to crack you, to break you. But the truth is, your words are so effective in entering the body because the more powerless you feel, it actually means that your words do really get in the system. But they hurt like hell. There in the question, I’m not good enough.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:36:49]:
Yeah, I’m just feeling how painful of a spot this is for couples. And I’m thinking how normal. I mean, I suppose there’s one part of me that’s like, well, we maybe don’t want aggression to happen, but also how normal it would be that if I want to really get through to you that I might become aggressive in some way to try to get through and to be close again and that if I’m feeling so overwhelmed with not being good enough that I would want to be really shut down emotionally and that then, yeah, I guess I’m just pulling it all together in my mind here.

That then would be like, well, you are getting through the bunker. You are getting through the armor or the shutdown. But then it hurts so much because the thing that worked to get through to me was telling me that I’m failing in some way. Or even if that wasn’t the intention, that’s what I’m hearing, and that’s exactly the feeling I’m trying to get away from. So then I might push you away, literally with aggression, to just trying to get the feeling of not being good enough for you to stop.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:38:18]:
Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:38:19]:
Yeah.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:38:19]:
That’s why. That’s well put. When you reflected back to me, this is not what listeners will see, but it gives me the goosebumps from that sad wave, because the way you reflected to me and I just lean in, listening to you, and there’s something with the way you’re telling it that, you know, your voice beams the emotions out of what it is to be in that kind of situation.

It’s indeed extremely, extremely painful for both of them. And then at that point, there is a kind of tipping point to the drama, because whether you’re in that, I don’t think we named it yet, but so far, we call it distance seeking aggression. Right. But there’s also the proximity seeking aggression. Right.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:39:21]:
I will do whatever it takes to get your attention. This is something that we see with little toddlers and little kids, and then we say, oh, it’s common. Yeah. He or she is just asking for, in a negative way, for attention. Well, as an adult, it’s just the same. Okay. When we get overwhelmed with that question and there is no reassurance. Okay.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:39:40]:
We as adults do that, too. So the proximity seeking aggression is, like, all about proximity, but you feel, like, driven to that moment where there are no words left. And then you will use wordless communication, which is physical acting out. And that has such a strong impact to the other one that it feels like crossing borders. And then you want them to be close and they turn away from you. So that’s where you get really caught in big feeling of, I have no control here.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:40:18]:
Yeah.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:40:19]:
And also the other way around. I just wanted you to stop yelling at me. I just wanted you to stop hitting me. Because the only thing I can hear in what you’re saying is that I’m failing. So I want to halt the words and the feeling of failing because I want to do good to you. And now when I use physical force to stop the dynamic, maybe it stopped the dynamic, but now I fall into emptiness. That’s terrible. And then we feel like failing again.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:41:02]:
I find myself thinking about how much shame happens also of now. We had an aggressive moment between us and how that, I guess, is looked down upon a lot in society.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:41:20]:
But yeah, definitely this is very interesting because it also leads us to the third door. Okay. The belonging door and the shame door. I mean, it’s a very big topic when we start talking about shame because there’s so many ways of looking at it. But here what you’re saying is, I think it just really speaks to a big piece of what shame is all about.

What you just said was like, hey, now, here was this incident, and we ourselves have no words to talk about it, but it happened, and so we need to. And then we start talking, or we show it, or people see it in our environment, or we go to our family or friends or a psychotherapist or counselor or somebody who’s providing some care, and you share that. And it’s such a complex thing to understand.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:42:21]:
It’s so difficult to put words around. And the answer is, oh, when that happens, we can’t help you. You better leave. Everybody gets caught up in that, not knowing what to do here. And so we say leave. But it gives, like, the idea of looking upon people and just giving the idea, like, what you’ve been suffering with, that is not okay. And that does not belong to the problems that we do want to invest in. Okay.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:42:58]:
It’s like a couples therapist saying that to a couple who come in in a voluntary way and say, like, the both of us want to work towards those dynamics. And the answer is, well, no, you should leave because we don’t want to. It’s actually giving the message what you guys are suffering with and the way you function in your relationship does not belong to normal sufferings. So you’re abnormal. You no longer belong. And here’s the thing with that no belonging question. I think that’s. But that’s maybe personal, but that’s my idea of belonging and attachment.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:43:41]:
You can suffer with the question, are you there for me? Or you can suffer with the question, am I good enough? But at least that’s a question that belongs to a relationship. At least you have a relationship. But when you receive messages of not being belonging to a bigger group, then you fall into big emptiness. There is no tribe, there is no group. You’re abnormal. You don’t belong to human beings or military folks or normal couples or whatever. And that leads to attachment, panic. That’s the place where you die.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:44:32]:
Our brain still thinks, if I don’t belong to my tribe. My tribe is telling me that I don’t belong to, then I have no place and I’m alone in the jungle, and I will die.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:44:45]:
Yeah.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:44:47]:
So what happens then, from attachment perspective is that we will try to do whatever it takes to stay out of that feeling. And this is where, when we are being ashamed for such a long time and we really start to internalize the feeling of no belonging. Withdrawing will not help, because the more you withdraw, the more people will say, see, you’re just always the lone wolf.

The more you fight. People say, yeah, you got an aggressive problem. Then you can just try to combine both or drink. But whatever you do, people will say, that’s not okay. And so what people tend to do then is rely on all kinds of strategies they have, and they will start to mix the withdrawal strategy with the hyperactivative fighting mode, and they will start doing all of those things together.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:45:50]:
Yeah, I was just. I had this picture in my mind of, like, you had mentioned drowning earlier, but I was remembered at some point in my life being told if I was going to help a drowning person, that I had to be careful because they’re kind of, like, flailing. And that’s the feeling, or, like, the image that went through my mind when you were saying that they might use a bunkering strategy or it’s like throwing everything. I guess I just had the. I had another picture of, like, throwing all the ingredients into this pot. Like, I’m using anything and everything just to. Just to try to not be drowning anymore.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:46:40]:
Exactly. And that can be for therapists, but also for friends and family members. That can be very overwhelming because then we all get caught in that powerlessness. Because, hey, I want to provide help. I just want to. And don’t fight me. Don’t yell at me. And then again, you get a reinforcing shame loop because once you’re in that I don’t belong mode, it’s really hard to get out of that.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:47:14]:
Yeah. Well, I think that takes me kind of naturally to my next question, maybe, of how do couples get out of this? Like, what if there was a military couple listening to this and they’re like, gosh, we really want to repair here. What do we do to even get started on that?

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:47:38]:
Well, one of the. The first things is, as I try to say to therapists I’m training, is, like, come up with a warm welcome, as we’re doing here a little bit in this conversation, which is if people come up and show whether you’re a therapist, a sister, a brother, a mother, a social worker and somebody comes to you or a good friend and somebody comes to you. This happened. Instead of going like, ooh, nah, now you should leave. This is not okay. This doesn’t fit normality. You can say, oh, wow, that must be hard. Well, you know, probably this is maybe hard to understand, but let’s sit down.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:48:33]:
I want to hear your story. Yeah, it’s like the warm welcome and offering them a deshaming answer that could sound like, hey, you know what? We don’t talk about it in society, but love and anger can be two sides of the same coin. That really happens a lot, and especially when you’re in extreme stressful situations. So, yeah, probably you’re not alone. Hey, and I’m here for you. Tell me what really happens and give people time to say and to let them talk about the incidents. And here is the tricky piece. They will start talking about what the other one did to them.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:49:30]:
He was so angry, she was so nasty, and she threw and she was all of a sudden in front of me with scissors in her hand telling me that she would kill me and that she wished I would die. In mission. How could you were or the other way around? But people will just start talking about what the other did. Okay. And here is a kind of big pitfall to forget that they’re talking about an incident and that we should we listen to them and reflect everything what they say as if the other one is wrong.

Okay, so what is most helpful is to say, whoa, that must be very complex, that all of a sudden, the one that you have been missing for such a long time all of a sudden is yelling at you. That must be so confusing to keep that ambivalent story alive. And, like, there’s a part where you’re loving and now you get caught.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:50:36]:
Okay, that’s the confusing part. Right. And if we keep that door open and people feel understood in that confusion, usually we can help them to tune into, hey, and were you angry too? And in what kind of a question or in what kind of attachment door were you caught? Were you having the feeling of not being okay? Or did you have that lonely feeling? Nobody was there. Were you suffering with no belonging? So what happened actually to you? And I think that’s where I really try to go to with people, with couples or with individuals. Like, welcome the complexity, welcome the stressors, normalize that.

It activates self protective attachment strategies that you can get caught in dynamics and cycles. Really try to tune in and look for people, like, in your behavior. What’s at the heart of the matter is that that need for proximity? Or is that need for some distance because you’re over flooded? Or is it the fighting for closeness because you’re so lonely? Or are you in a place where you mix them all because you have no belonging anymore? What does it really mean for you? And so from a therapeutic point of view, I call it find the attachment significance of the aggressive behavior.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:52:21]:
If it would have a lot of words to express what the aggressive outbursts would say, if they only would have the words, what would it say? And so help people to find words to that, because once they found the words themselves, there’s a lot of hope that comes, because then they can start using those words in the couple dynamic, and then we can help them express the underlying feelings and needs.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:52:55]:
Yeah, there’s a common phrase, I think, at least with therapists here, like, if you can name it, you can tame it. Kind of like a little saying. That’s kind of what I’m hearing, is that if we can find a name for what’s happening emotionally between us, that’s leading to the aggressive moments, then we can team up and we can do something about it. Maybe communicate about something that before we couldn’t communicate about in a different way.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:53:34]:
Yeah, well, I love it. If you can name it, you can tame it. And it’s in your last reflection, it’s actually in there. But what I like to say is, if you can name it and you make it relational, you can tame it. And in that, make it relational, that’s a really interesting element. Okay. So sometimes I know things for myself, like in my own relationship. Sometimes I know, oh, I’m really not dealing with all my emotions pretty well.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:54:06]:
I’m feeling really insecure. I can name it myself, and as long as I don’t make it explicit or talk to about it in a vulnerable way to my wife, it doesn’t change. So there’s something with that need of making it relational. Okay? And that’s what we can do as couples counselors or couples therapists, but as a friend, as a mother, as a father, as a colleague, as a.

I don’t know what, when you’re, when somebody from your environment comes to you and they’re sharing about those incidents, then they’re just already naming it and making it relational, they’re making a huge risk. What we can do is instead of act upon it and give them advice, facilitate that process of naming it in a relationship. Naming it in a relationship. So the more we listen and not do something immediately, or the more we listen, instead of sending them away, the more we are already facilitating that process of naming it relational, and it will lead to people being able to tame it more.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:55:31]:
So my whole idea is, like, it’s a very complex phenomenon. It’s a very difficult thing to work with. Yes. But the answer is, actually less is more.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:55:46]:
Yes. I think that’s what I’m taking from what you just said. Especially I’m thinking about all the Facebook groups where I see all the types of advice to people, and I’m hearing that if I want to really help my friend or somebody who’s going through this, keeping my opinions to myself, maybe a little bit, and then helping them kind of emotionally process or emotionally put together what’s happening, so that way they can name it and then make it relational and sharing about it with their partner. I’m sort of wondering if there’s anything else for you that feels really important that it gets said for this episode.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:56:38]:
What feels important to me is that I feel grateful, again, actually, in having this conversation with you, Liz. And what comes to me is that I have a kind of conversation with a lot of people, probably, who will listen to this, and I hope I didn’t come across as a kind of expertise, because, actually, what I feel is, like, a bit grateful of having the opportunity in leaning into this world that I don’t know.

And I wish we had, like, a more kind of dialogue. This is what I would want us to have to do right now is like. But that’s not possible to open up and hear people’s reactions and so that we can have a. Because I’m really learning from this conversation with you. And I feel this need of, like, accepting and just, like, normalizing. I think the huge amount of stress that comes with this life and that it’s complex and it’s also beautiful.

Jef Slootmaeckers [00:57:55]:
I think that will move me, listening to all the kinds of stories, how much love is involved there. I mean, in love for the country, love for the mission, love for your friends and comrades, but also for your spouses and kids. We didn’t talk about the kids, but of course, there.

And how much people, how much investment there is there. I think it would, like, really give me a warm heart. And in a way, as a european belgian guy, where there is so little military activity and employment, I found it really interesting to stand still and learn and have a little bit of a glimpse of how much people are involved in this way of living. So I feel like a bit of gratitude.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:58:57]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think I feel that similarly, but more so to have you on the podcast and to talk about this when it is so often that people are sort of sent away or can’t, where it’s hard. I’ve talked about on the podcast before how hard it is within the military context to get help for relationships in general.

But the little help that kind of is built into military culture is also not very. It is a culture of sending people away. And that is, I think one of my hopes in having you on this episode is that couples will know that there is hope and that there are people who are trained to help them navigate this and still stay in relationship with each other. Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [01:00:01]:
So thank you for being on the podcast.

Jef Slootmaeckers [01:00:06]:
Thank you for inviting me. In Belgium, we just released a new book on this. It’s in Dutch, so probably your listeners will not be able to exit it and even when they would be able to, not able to read it. But we’re really working hard on translation. It will be called fighting for love, I guess. And it’s in a very simple way based on seven returning questions that people ask themselves when they get caught after big incidents. And Levin and I, we in the book, try to answer it in a very common, accepting, normalizing, human way. And so hopefully that I’m working hard to get it translated into English.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [01:00:56]:
So, yeah, that will, I’ll see if I can find a link for it to put in the show notes, but certainly once it’s in English, I’m like, let me know and I will update the show notes so that way people can find it.

Jef Slootmaeckers [01:01:10]:
I will let you know.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [01:01:12]:
Yeah, perfect.

Jef Slootmaeckers [01:01:13]:
Okay. Thank you so much.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [01:01:26]:
As part of this special series on attachment in relationships, I created the ARE quiz. ​ This quiz uses the brief accessibility, responsiveness, and engagement scale, which I used in my own dissertation research and I use with each couple when I start working with them in couples counseling.

This quiz helps you and your partner know how secure your relationship is, the level of distress you’re in, when you should be considering marriage counseling, and what sort of behaviors you both can work on to help promote the security of your attachment bond. Make sure to check out the show notes to download a copy of the quiz. While I am a therapist, this podcast is for educational purposes only and is not considered therapy, and it should also not be a replacement for therapy. If you think you need a professional of any kind, you should definitely of go find one. Until next time.