How to Regulate a Dysregulated Nervous System with Michelle Cantrell

Episode Summary of “How to Regulate a Dysregulated Nervous System with Michelle Cantrell”

Welcome to Episode 53 of The Communicate & Connect Podcast! I’m your host, Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky, and today we are diving into the fascinating world of nervous system regulation and how to regulate a dysregulated nervous system with our esteemed guest, Michelle Cantrell. Michelle is a licensed professional clinical counselor and founder of the Center for Growth and Connection, specializing in emotionally focused therapy and EMDR.

In this episode, Michelle shares powerful insights on how to recognize and manage a dysregulated nervous system, highlighting the impact it has on our relationships and emotional well-being. We’ll explore techniques like EMDR’s resourcing, physical activities for completing the stress response cycle, and the importance of self-regulation and co-regulation in emotional experiences with partners.

Michelle and I discuss practical tools, including the RULER acronym for emotional intelligence, the benefits of creative expression, and the role of art therapy in achieving emotional balance. Plus, we’ll uncover the surprising power of breath work, positive social interactions, and even crying as methods to soothe and connect.

Join us as we unravel the complexities of emotional regulation, offering you effective strategies to bring calm and connection into your relationships. Don’t forget to check out Michelle’s practice at centerforgrowthandconnection.com and take our ARE quiz based on the brief accessibility, responsiveness, and engagement scale for further insights. Let’s get started!

Guest Speaker Bio – Michelle Cantrell

Michelle Cantrell is a licensed professional clinical counselor (LPCC) in California and also holds licensing in Virginia and Washington, D.C. She is the founder and clinical director of the Center of Growth and Connection, a small group therapy practice based in Pasadena, California. Under her leadership, the center provides therapy with a strong focus on relational healing, addressing relationship distress common to many clients, whether they are individuals or couples.

Michelle’s expertise extends to emotionally focused therapy, EMDR, and a variety of other approaches that emphasize both relationship dynamics and emotion regulation. Her practice aims to help clients improve their relationships with themselves, their partners, and others in their lives, recognizing that emotional challenges often arise most intensely within these interactions.

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Episode Transcript for “How to Regulate a Dysregulated Nervous System with Michelle Cantrell”

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:00:01]:
This podcast is sponsored by Communicate and Connect Counseling, where we have a team of therapists who provide individual, couples, and family therapy services, all tailored to meet the needs of military and veteran families. To learn more about our services, visit www.communicateandconnect.com.

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Communicate and Connect podcast. This is episode number 53. It’s part of our attachment series, and today we’re focusing on how to regulate a dysregulated nervous system with our guest, Michelle Cantrell. Michelle, I’m so excited to have you here on this podcast. For those of you who don’t know, Michelle and I go back a few years now.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:01:04]:
She was one of my original supervisors who helped me learn emotionally focused therapy and really get used to working with couples. And she has such a lovely focus of using EFT with couples. But she is also trained in EMDR, which is why I wanted her here to talk about what do you do when your nervous system is so dysregulated? But before I keep going, Michelle, maybe you could just introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about you so our audience can get to know you some.

Michelle Cantrell [00:01:37]:
Yeah. Thanks so much, Liz. And thank you for inviting me on the show. And I’m so excited to be here. And I’m really impressed with all the work you’ve been doing. And I think the messages that you’re putting out around communicating and connecting is so important. And I love the work that you’re doing. So, again, thank you for having me on your show.

Michelle Cantrell [00:01:57]:
So I’m Michelle Cantrell, licensed professional clinical counselor that’s in California, LPCC, or LPC, also in Virginia and Washington, DC. And I’m also the founder and clinical director for the center of Growth and Connection, which is based in Pasadena, California. It’s a small group practice where we provide therapy that’s really relationally focused. So that doesn’t just mean couple therapy, but relationship distress is the common thread throughout the struggles that all of our clients are facing.

So even when we’re working with individuals, often it’s centered around relationship healing, dysfunctional relationship patterns, and just improving relationships both with themselves and with their partners and other people in their lives. So I am certified in emotionally focused therapy. As you already mentioned, I have training in EMDR, and I have training in some other areas and informed by a lot of different approaches that really are centered not only around the relationship piece, but around emotion regulation. Because where else does that come up the most? But within our relationships, where we’re feeling really dysregulated.

Michelle Cantrell [00:03:11]:
So I’m passionate about helping people co regulate in their relationships, but also finding that balance between co regulation and self regulation, because I think finding that balance is where we have optimal relationship functioning.

What is nervous system dysregulation and why is matters

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:03:27]:
Yeah, I’m already getting really excited for this episode because I’m excited to dive into co regulation and self regulation. But I’m thinking we should probably even just start with what is nervous system dysregulation, and why would it matter, and why is it worth talking about? I don’t know if you have any ways that you like to talk about, like what is dysregulation?

Michelle Cantrell [00:03:54]:
Well, I think I’m a big fan of Emily Ngoski, who is a sex educator, but also talks a lot about burnout. And you can’t talk about burnout without talking about dysregulation in our nervous system and thinking about it really as a stress response. And when there’s a cue a stress trigger, it activates that stress response cycle. So that’s just another way of referring to nervous system dysregulation.

We have lots of ways to talk about it, the fight or flight or flee response. And of course, we’ve added in some other ways of responding to those triggers, like the fawn response. And so if we think about what is that nervous system dysregulation and that stress response, it’s really our bodies starting to prime themselves, prime itself for action in response to a real or perceived threat. And I think it’s important to use the that language, because perceived threat is going to activate the same response level as real threat.

Michelle Cantrell [00:04:59]:
Our bodies aren’t going to worry about distinguishing it. Our bodies are just concerned about our survival in that moment. And that stress response activates a neurological and hormonal activity that is really preparing our bodies to take action, that is going to help you survive whatever threat that is. And that activity is that release of adrenaline, a release of cortisol. Their adrenaline is pushing blood into your muscles.

The cortisol is helping keep you going when you otherwise might peter out. The endorphins, interestingly, are the function of the endorphin release in that moment is to help us not to feel the pain of all that’s happening for us and the discomfort with all the release of the hormone activity. Our muscles are tensing, our sensitivity to pain is diminishing, and our attention is alert and vigilant.

Michelle Cantrell [00:05:58]:
And it’s just focusing on the short term, the here and now, thinking, what is the next thing I need to do to get myself out of this threat situation? And of course, if there aren’t those options. Our body’s preparing us to fight or flee, primarily. Right. And if those aren’t options, then of course, the next option is the parasympathetic response, where our bodies start to shut down again, another protection mode.

And I want to highlight here that when that happens, it is not a conscious choice. It is our bodies. It’s a different set of physiological reactions that are shutting us down. And I think that can be really important to know in the context of relationships where we might see a partner shutting down and we make meaning of that.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:06:53]:
Like you’re doing it on purpose or you’re intentionally ignoring me or you don’t want to talk or something like that.

Michelle Cantrell [00:07:00]:
Right. And often it is actually part, it is the next step of that fight or flight response. It’s a survival strategy. One of the things that I think is the most interesting, and this, I can cite Emily Ngoski for saying this, not that she originated the research around this, but I think, especially in the context of relationships, when we are activated into that stress response cycle, our memory shifts to channel functioning to the narrow band of experience and knowledge that is most immediately relevant to the stressor.

Now, if you think about our negative cycles and how we get stuck in these patterns, these repetitive patterns of interactions with our partners, our memory is going to be focused on the times we’ve been hurt or harmed or, you know, in some way had a negative experience with our partner, and we’re going to have tunnel vision. That is what we’re going. That’s what our brains and bodies. And again, I want to highlight this.

Michelle Cantrell [00:08:08]:
It’s not a conscious decision. How often do we hear one partner saying, well, my partner’s always focused on the negative. Why can’t they let go of the past? Why are they dwelling on the past? Why can’t we just focus on the positive things or look at the future? Again, this is not a conscious decision on the part of the partner who’s remembering these.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:08:26]:
It’s their body response.

Michelle Cantrell [00:08:28]:
It’s their body’s response. Their body is focusing on their memory bank that is going to tell them what’s going to happen next to prepare.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:08:38]:
For the stressful event that they are thinking is going to happen.

Michelle Cantrell [00:08:42]:
Yes.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:08:43]:
Okay.

How nervous system dysregulation impacts relationships

Michelle Cantrell [00:08:43]:
Exactly. And so all of this and what I think, as we’re talking about emotion, dysregulation, I don’t want to paint a picture that this is all happening because of things in our relationship. Of course, sometimes it can be a external and we’re bringing it into the relationship. Maybe your boss yelled at you, maybe, you know, the traffic was way worse. And, you know, our bodies, we haven’t had a software update, right, to modern life, and our bodies are, are responding to things like that the same way they respond to being chased by a lion.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:09:17]:
Yes. I was just thinking that when you were saying that of, like, when I hear people talk about fight, flight, leaf on all of these things, they often reference something like being chased by a lion, where I have the stress response of there’s a potential danger. I have my body focuses. I might not notice pain anymore because I’m focused on, let me just survive this moment and get through this moment.

And so what I’m really hearing is people’s memories or what they start relying on in those moments when they’re activated and they’re stressed is what has gotten me through this before, what worked in the past to keep me safe from the lion. And in this case, I guess in the job example, if I have a series of a lot of negative experiences with bosses or employers, I might have a stress response to my boss when they say, like, oh, we have to do a performance review or something like that.

And I might have a similar stress response where I’m thinking, what got me through a performance review in the past, but it’s a similar process, whether it’s a lion, a stress response to a boss, or a stress response in a romantic relationship.

Michelle Cantrell [00:10:46]:
Yeah. And if you think about it, that’s where intermittent positive reinforcement might come in, in terms of the having a, you know, if one or two times this. This way of doing things, this response worked, then I’m going to do it again, even if it’s not a sure bet.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:11:05]:
Yes. Yeah. That makes total sense, right? That we would do what seemed to work in the past.

Michelle Cantrell [00:11:12]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:11:13]:
And even if it doesn’t work in the new situation that I’m in, that it would make sense we would all go back to what worked in the past.

Michelle Cantrell [00:11:22]:
Yeah. I mean, our bodies, again, we hear it so often in the couples that we work with, some version of one or both partners saying, when we get stuck, it’s here we go again. We hear that cycle, that I’ve been here before, and that’s our bodies remembering. That’s why in the beginning of a relationship, you haven’t been stuck in these patterns.

But the more you get stuck in them, the more efficient we get at responding to them. That efficiency, instead of it taking 3 hours to escalate, it might take ten minutes or five minutes, because that’s the efficiency of our bodies and brains getting in that fight or fright anticipating what’s going to happen and responding before it’s all even played out.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:12:09]:
Okay. I’m thinking about how we can make sense of this in relationships. So I think I’m tracking, like, what is nervous system dysregulation? And so, and I think what I’m hearing is that the way it impacts relationships is that when I perceive something stressful between me and my partner, I go into this stress response, and then I react. Based on how I’ve learned to need to react to situations like that in the past, is there anything else that we should be thinking about in terms of, like, how, I guess, nervous system dysregulation might impact a relationship?

Michelle Cantrell [00:12:56]:
Yeah. I think the other big thing to be aware of is when all of this is happening in our bodies and minds and systems are going into survival mode, blood flow is being directed away from the prefrontal cortex, and that’s important because the prefrontal cortex is where we can access impulse control and emotion regulation. So the thing we need most in that moment with our partners, the emotion regulation, the impulse control that keeps us from saying horrible things to our partner or throwing a dish at the wall or whatever it is, we’ve now lost access to the part of our brain that’s going to keep that in check.

And again, it’s not. I want to keep emphasizing, most of the time, these things aren’t conscious. They are automatic physiological, survival based responses. And so then if that’s happening when our prefrontal cortex goes offline and we’re now trying to engage with our partners, we are doing so from that dysregulated place, and it’s hard to slow things down. You know, it’s hard to focus on having an interaction that’s not going to be from that fight or fight place.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:14:20]:
Yeah, yeah. And then I’m just thinking, well, I guess I’m thinking if I’m in fight or flight, if I’m. If I’m coming out with fight, my partner might struggle to respond to me if I’m in a fight stance. Yeah. And so I’m I’m just even thinking, like, how I think in my relationship, if I probably come out fighting more in the fight, fight, flight, flee, all of those and all the f’s. Yeah. And I was thinking, I think I would put money on it. That would probably create a stress response from my partner.

Michelle Cantrell [00:15:08]:
Yeah, right, exactly. And then now you’re both locked in that cycle, right?

Tips for regulating a dysregulated nervous system

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:15:14]:
Yeah. Which would be very hard, I guess, to calm down to get what we said, I guess, re regulated or become emotionally regulated, especially if we’re both in this dysregulated spot. So I guess that takes me to. Do you have any tips for how to regulate when it feels like your nervous system is dysregulated?

Michelle Cantrell [00:15:40]:
Yeah, I am. And I have. You know, what I like to do is I like to think about all of this in the context of having a toolbox, not one tool. And so, yeah, I like. And, you know, in. In that toolbox, you have to sort of figure out, do I have a nail here so that I need a hammer? Do I have a screw here so that I need a screwdriver? Maybe. Maybe. I thought I needed a screwdriver, but it’s stripped.

Michelle Cantrell [00:16:08]:
So now maybe a hammer is a better tool. And it’s about, you know, just being open and curious and trying what works and. And offering ourselves and our partner’s grace sometimes. So I feel like I have a lot that I like to offer and then let my clients know or let them figure out in the moment. And sometimes we experiment with it in session. Sometimes they go home.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:16:38]:
You walk them through. Here are the whole array of tools that you could use, and then they can experiment, sort of like, which one feels like it works the best.

Michelle Cantrell [00:16:48]:
Right? Or we kind of do it in real time and see what one fits. And, you know, because I also. I don’t. In a client session, I don’t want to overwhelm my clients. But, you know, in a bigger picture, I have. You know, I like to know that I have lots of tools that I can offer my clients.

One of the things that I really like that’s not EMDR related or related to any of my other models that I’ve been trained in, but I think is really useful is an acronym developed by an emotion science researcher named Mark Brackett, and I highly recommend his book for anybody that’s really struggling with emotion regulation. His book is called permission to feel (please note this is an affiliate link from amazon).

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:17:29]:
Okay, I’ll make sure to include a link to that for people listening right now in the show notes. Permission to feel.

Michelle Cantrell [00:17:36]:
Yeah, permission to feel. And going back also to Emily Ngoski’s book Burnouts, another great book (please note this is an affiliate link form amazon).

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:17:41]:
Okay.

Michelle Cantrell [00:17:41]:
But in permission to feel, Mark Brackett comes up with an acronym called RULER for using it as a tool to help with emotion regulation. And I’ve offered this as one of the tools from my clients. Toolbox. Ruler starts with the r, which is recognize. We start with just recognizing that something’s happening instead of just moving forward on autopilot. This is where we start to slow down. Probably somewhere in your head you’re hearing that, uh oh, or some version of it, okay, I’ve got to pay attention to what’s happening. The you is understand, and that really is code for let’s get curious.

Michelle Cantrell [00:18:26]:
What is happening? What just happened? Let’s slow it down. Let’s see. Am I upset because my partner left a dish in the sink, or am I upset because the dish is in the sink? But really, my boss yelled at me today, and I’m still stuck in that place. So it’s really just getting curious. The l is for label. So labeling the emotion and what I like, especially about the l and really, this is true. The are you and L. Part of this is really about what’s happening inside, and it’s about bringing the prefrontal cortex back online.

Michelle Cantrell [00:19:04]:
When we start noticing and labeling, that’s a cue to our prefrontal cortex, that, to bring it back online. So the label is, I’m feeling sad, I’m feeling angry, I’m feeling frustrated, I’m feeling, you know, joy, whatever it is, right. That’s probably not going to happen in these moments of dysregulation, but I thought I’d throw it in there anyway. And then the e is express, okay, the next step after we’ve. Because the R U L is starting that process of regulation, and then we’re going to express it, communicate it to somebody else.

Right. You know, if we’re, I mean, we might be saying it to ourselves, but it, since we’re here talking about relationships, how am I express it? And the only thing that I think interesting about this, and every time I teach it to somebody, I always say this, I kind of wish there was like a british spelling of this. I wouldn’t make sense if it was really re instead of er.

Michelle Cantrell [00:19:56]:
But I feel like the r does need to come before the e when we’re talking about relational experiencing. And I want to help clients do the regulating before they’re expressing, okay, I don’t want it to be like, I’m so angry, you know, I want to help them start with, can I express that emotional state that I’m in, even if it is something like anger in a more regulated state? And this is where we want to manage that co regulation forces self regulation, because it’s going to be really hard to get some of that co regulation that we need from our partners if we’re totally dysregulated in sharing our emotional state.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:20:42]:
Yeah. So maybe you could just tell us, like, what is self regulation versus co regulation. Like, what do those terms even mean?

Michelle Cantrell [00:20:51]:
Self regulation is really about getting ourselves a little bit more in a grounded state so that what we are bringing to our partners, it’s sort of. I don’t know, I’m trying to think of an image that can go with it, but we want to make sure that we’re not giving our partners more than they can help us hold. Right. If it’s too big for us, then it’s probably going to overwhelm our partners as well. And so how can I bring it down to a state? I’m not talking about being zen, you know, that.

I’m not talking about, like, not ever having emotional experiences, but how can I bring the temperature down enough that then I can pass some of what I’m experiencing to my partner? And then we can share in that co regulation where maybe my partner is in a calmer state, or they can help soothe me and bring it down. And so we’re not totally dependent on another person for that regulation, but to the other extreme, we are sharing in that co regulation so that our partner can be part of our emotional experience.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:22:03]:
So I guess I’m thinking, like, comfort when co regulation might be comfort. Is that a good parallel here?

Michelle Cantrell [00:22:12]:
I think so. I think so. It can be part of soothing the nervous system. But, you know, I think we as individuals have a responsibility to share our emotional states from that more regulated place to get that soothing.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:22:25]:
Yes. I was just thinking that. I really love that you’re saying that right now, Michelle, because I think so often, especially even when I, like, I can just say it from my own experience, and I think a lot of people can really to this is that sometimes my emotions feel so big, like, they feel like I can’t hold them on my own. And I so badly want my partner to somehow be able to help. For somebody to be able to help when they feel so big. And so what I’m hearing is, if it’s too big for me, it’s also going to be too big for my partner. And that’s okay.

Michelle Cantrell [00:23:11]:
Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:23:13]:
Yeah, I think so.

Michelle Cantrell [00:23:15]:
Yeah. Well, go on.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:23:16]:
Well, I guess I was thinking. So then it’s twofold. Like, if I have to be able to, I guess, hold my own emotions, I don’t really know the right phrasing for this. Maybe you can help me. Help me with it, Michelle, as I’m putting these thoughts together, but that I somehow have to.

To learn to be with my own emotions in such a way that they are, even if they’re incredibly painful. They don’t overwhelm me to be feeling them. And then I can, when I’m in a place where it doesn’t overwhelm me to be feeling, then I’ll be maybe more successful or at getting comfort from my partner or getting support from them when I feel like I might need it.

Michelle Cantrell [00:24:07]:
Yes. I don’t think you need any help finding Liz. I think that was a perfect way of putting it.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:24:12]:
Okay.

Michelle Cantrell [00:24:13]:
Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:24:13]:
Well, great.

Michelle Cantrell [00:24:14]:
Yeah. So then how do we do that? Right. How do we be with our emotions when they feel so overwhelming sometimes? And this is where I also draw very heavily on internal family systems. So I think there, you know, if we go back to Emily Ngoski’s work and the stress response cycle, she has a lot of suggestions based, you know, research based suggestions on how. What are things we can engage in?

What are things we can do to complete that stress response cycle, that. That dysregulation that we’re feeling? And I want to come back to that because I think those are really important, but I think there can be an important step in between. And internal family systems is an approach that’s very parts based. And the assumption that we all have different parts, and a lot of times, different parts have competing needs within ourselves.

Michelle Cantrell [00:25:03]:
And if our parts aren’t tended to by us, then they can get really loud, and they can show up in a way that we experience as dysregulated. And so when we start to use that parts language and we go back to, like, ruler and labeling, I think it can be a way to help that regulation process start to kick in. And so, you know, just like when I said, we label emotions, we can also break it down a little bit more and say, a part of me is feeling really angry right now.

A part of me is feeling really overwhelmed right now. And what that does is it gives us enough distance in ourselves from that part to then allow us to approach that part with some curiosity and some gentleness. Okay, well, I notice I’m feeling really angry. What is this part needing from me right now so that it won’t overwhelm me? Or maybe I can even use that to express to my partner rather than I. I’m so angry.

Michelle Cantrell [00:26:03]:
We can say a part of me is feeling really angry that you just left the dish in the sink. Right. And I don’t know why I’m picking on dishes in the sink, but, yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:26:14]:
I pick on dishes in the sink all the time, so go. I feel like it’s a common. It’s a common stress response cycle. For many people.

Michelle Cantrell [00:26:23]:
Right. And then that goes into the meaning, which is why I don’t want to jump ahead to some of the tools in the toolbox. Sorry I’m using air quotes when there’s just going to be an audio here. But I think we can’t disregard the meaning that our parts make in these moments, because then if we disregard meaning, we might pick the wrong tool to help regulate. Right. And, you know, if I think about what for many people, you know, when I’ve heard. Because as probably the same for you, Liz, that issue actually does show up in couples therapy. The meaning that gets made is you don’t care about me.

Michelle Cantrell [00:27:03]:
I’m working all day. I cook dinner. I leave to take the kids to gymnastics class, and I come back and the dishes are still in the sink, and you’re sitting there reading the newspaper. You don’t care about me. And so if we start to understand that there’s this part that’s really activated by seeing the dishes in the sink encodes that as you don’t care about me, we can start that regulation process where I can talk to my own part and say, you are really important, and start addressing that part in our relationship with self and relationship with that part.

And so I just want to tie that in there before I offer some of the other more kind of technical things, activities you can do to complete that stress response cycle. Because I think that meaning making is so much part of what activates the stress response cycle. It’s not the dish in the sink that activates the cycle.

Michelle Cantrell [00:28:06]:
It’s the meaning that we make of the dish in the sink that activates the cycle.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:28:10]:
Yes. I love what you’re sharing that. It reminds me of some of the. This is a long time ago now, like many, many years now. But I used to have some friends who were very into self compassion, like mindfulness work and self compassion work.

And what you’re sharing reminds me of that of, like, can I almost comfort myself? Can I, they would say, like, to put my hand on my chest or to put my hand on my face and hold my face and say, like, yeah, this hurts. This is really painful, but I think you’re valuable, or I think you’re important and sort of talking in a comforting way, I guess, to that part that you’re describing.

Michelle Cantrell [00:29:02]:
Yes. Yeah. Kristen Neff’s work with self compassion. And she talks about how the cue for the stress response cycle, and I’m kind of merging language here, but the cue fires the first arrow at us, and then we fire the second arrow at ourself by the meaning that we make of it.

And so as we’re talking, talking about this, Liz, and thinking about the self regulation piece, I want to be clear that I’m not saying that we’re just going to use that to excuse our partner’s behavior or to silence ourselves and our needs, but instead soothing ourselves first by saying, yes, this is hard. I’m here, I love you, to ourselves. And then now we’re maybe a little bit better regulated so that we can actually express our. Our pain, our hurt, our put out a request, if there is one, but doing it from that place, that’s not coming from attacking.

Michelle Cantrell [00:30:00]:
It’s not berating our partners for them having another lapse or leaving the dish in the sink again. It’s really like, I get really sad when you do this. This part of me gets really sad because I tell myself, x, y, and Z. And so we still want to help our clients. You know, our partners communicate their pain with each other.

This is not about silencing that, but it’s about, again, that self regulation piece first, and then we go into the co regulation. So I want to be cognizant, because I do have lots of other sort of more kind of concrete things that people can do for that self regulation piece. Do you want me to switch gears and kind of go in?

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:30:49]:
Yes. Yeah. Yeah, tell us. I’m sure that’s going to be really helpful.

Michelle Cantrell [00:30:54]:
So, because you had brought me on the show to, you know, because of my background in EMDR, I’d be happy to start with one of the things that we do in EMDR in preparation for memory reprocessing, which is what most people think of with EMdrhen, is we do what we call resourcing, which is really about helping us self regulate. Right. Because, in essence, the memory reprocessing phase of EMDR is exposure therapy. It’s asking our clients to go towards this painful memory that they put a lot of effort into avoiding.

And so we want to make sure as EMDR practitioners, that we are helping somebody feel resourced enough that they can tolerate that experience. And so one of the things that we do is we have an exercise called safe place. It can be safe place or calm place. Sometimes we get too caught up on the language of safety.

Michelle Cantrell [00:31:51]:
And I’ve worked with clients that don’t really know what it’s like to feel safe. And so I try and find language that fits for my clients, but really it’s about cultivating something in your mind’s eye that helps you access a sense of, at the very least, neutrality in your body. Ideally something that feels more like a positive experience, but even a neutral state can be enough to help that regulation.

So with EMDR, we might evoke something, an image for our client. They come up with the image on themselves, by themselves, and then we just help flesh it out. Right. When you describe it might be, you know, one person, it might be a scene on a beach. And so I might ask them, okay, tell me what you see.

Michelle Cantrell [00:32:44]:
Is there anybody with you? And if there’s anybody with them, I am very careful about if that relationship could contaminate that safe place. So, you know, if it’s like, it could be a deceased relative that really loved them, that would be a little bit safer. Like, probably don’t want your partner in your safe place contaminate it, but you flesh it out with the senses.

Okay, what do you see? What do you smell? Is the. Is it like a. You know, some people like to be on the beach on a cool October day. You know, some people want to be there and they feel the sun baking their face. And so you’re really using the five senses to make that image come alive.

Michelle Cantrell [00:33:26]:
And then in EMDR, we then use slow bilateral stimulation to help what we call install the image. If you’re on your own, you can do bilateral shoulder tapping. You can put a hand on each knee and do bilateral tapping. There are apps that you can use that have visual bilateral stimulation, audio bilateral stimulation. But for installing safe place, you want just really slow, short sets, maybe like five taps. And you just do that a couple of times. And it can be a way to start accessing in your mind’s eye a place to go.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:34:10]:
And, like, a mental place that I can go to, this mental place inside of me, sort of, that can feel calm in that room. I guess I’m thinking of it as, like a room in my mind.

Michelle Cantrell [00:34:25]:
Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s a good way of putting it. And it’s not. I think it’s not that I don’t know that I’ve heard this comparison, but it’s not that different from some around transcendental meditation, which is founded on the idea that all of us have access to a place of calm inside of us.

And the imagery that they use is like, if you think about the ocean surface, sometimes there are big waves, and sometimes it’s calm, but at the bottom of the ocean, it is always still. And so we, you know, doing that safe place, or we want to find other ways to help people find that place. Of calm that I think and these practitioners think we all have access to inside of us.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:35:07]:
Yeah. Oh, I love that.

Michelle Cantrell [00:35:12]:
So then if I just move on to some of the recommendations that Emily Ngoski talks about in terms of just really, how do we complete that stress response cycle? Here’s the big one. Physical activity is the number one way to complete the stress response cycle. And if you think about it, it makes sense because that stress response cycle is getting activated because our bodies think we’re being chased by a lion. And if we were being chased by a lion, we would be running, we would be, you know, fleeing.

We would be working all of those hormones that have been released in our body out through that physical activity, if we don’t do those hormones, stay in our body unless we can complete that cycle. So physical activity is the number one way to complete the stress response cycle. But I want to encourage people to not hear that and think, oh, I need to exercise, because physical activity and exercise are similar, but not the same thing, at least as we have connotations around it.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:36:13]:
Like, I could have a, like, I could jam out to my favorite song in my bedroom, and that would be physical activity versus, like, push ups, which I don’t want to do.

Michelle Cantrell [00:36:25]:
Exactly. Moving your body, finding some way. And if you can do it in a way that brings joy, even better. Dancing would be a great one. You know, as I was thinking about this, I was thinking, well, you know, what are some things that we could do to make it relational, too? And, you know, if I’m thinking about, you know, a couple who might be struggling, maybe it’s you each take a walk separately.

It could be we’re going to take a walk together. It could be we’re going to take a walk together and put on pause this, this thing we’re talking about. It could be that we are going to take a walk together and use the bilateral stimulation that comes from walking because your legs are engaging in that bilateral stimulation.

Michelle Cantrell [00:37:06]:
That can be grounding enough that maybe you can have those conversations. I’ve actually had some great therapy sessions that had been walk and talk therapy sessions, and I think that in and of itself can be regulating enough to talk about some challenging things. And so in that case, I would encourage partners to just feel it out and see what fits for them. But that physical activity, that’s going to be the number one thing. After that, we can look at a lot of other options. Breath work. I mean, most of these aren’t going to be new to anybody who is in therapy, but I’m going to repeat it all again. Breath work.

Michelle Cantrell [00:37:41]:
It can be just really long, slow, deep breaths. You know, the thing about when we are in a state of automatic nervous system activity, there is nothing about our autonomic nervous system that we have any control over, except one thing, our breath. We can’t control our perspiration, our respiration, our digestion, we can’t control it, but we can control our breath.

And so when we are in that activation, our breath becomes shorter. Right. We take more shallow breaths. So when we can take long, slow, deep breaths or engage in square, square breathing, you know, 4 seconds in, 4 seconds out, 4 seconds hold. You know, I’m shortening it here, but when we start controlling our breath, it’s a way to use our body to send a signal to our brain that we are not in threat.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:38:32]:
Yes. I like this. And I’m even thinking, like, if a conversation was starting to get tense, like, this is some, like, this would be such an easy thing. Yeah, I know people talk about timeouts, but. But we can just have, like, a breathing time out together or something if. If needed.

Michelle Cantrell [00:38:54]:
And Liz, that’s a great idea. And I, you know, this might feel maybe a little bit corny or hard to do with two people who are in distress, but dyadic breathing, where each partner is matching the breath of their arc, you know, you’re paying attention and you’re aligning your breath, so you’re both inhaling at the same time for the same amount of time. You’re both exhaling at the same time for the same amount of time. And that dyadic breathing can be a really great way to be, to find that balance between that self regulation and the co regulation.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:39:26]:
Yes, I really like that. Again, I think if I’m in the stress cycle, it might be hard for me to do that. But if I could, you know, if I was on the lower end of the stress, I might be able to do it, and I could see how that would feel, really connecting versus disconnecting, even though we’re having some sort of conflict or hard conversation.

Michelle Cantrell [00:39:50]:
Yeah, exactly. And then here’s another one that also might be hard to do with your partner if the distress is with your partner, but affection, so famously the six second kiss or the 22nd hug, you’re probably not going to do the six second kiss with somebody who’s not your partner, although you may. But, you know, a 22nd hug can be with a friend or a family member who is safe and you trust. So, you know, it might be like maybe your partner, maybe the distress isn’t because of something between you.

Maybe again, going back to your, your boss yelled at you and you’re feeling upset, maybe then coming home and having that six second kiss can be part of that self regulation and co regulation and then just generally, more generally positive social interaction is another way to complete that cycle. So, you know, if it’s not going to be with your partner, maybe it’s calling up a friend and just feeling that connection.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:40:46]:
Yeah, I’m thinking of that right now because of, well, as you know, we’re on our bucket list for the things that we’re trying to do before we move again. And in this next set of orders, my husband will likely deploy. And so I am thinking, you know, it was so hard when he was gone. Every time he’s gone, it’s hard. And oftentimes what I want is that 22nd hug. Like what I would give for that 22nd hug.

But I think the last time he was deployed, thankfully, I had a lot of really good friends who I could get 22nd hugs from or this positive social interaction. So I’m also thinking when I can’t, when I can’t co regulate, when I don’t have my partner there for comfort and I’m forced to only have, well, mostly myself, I’m liking this idea of positive social interaction as really helping.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:41:51]:
And I know, well, you know this about me, but I love dancing. And so when he was deployed, I would dance a bunch and I was basically getting hugs all the time just from going social dancing.

Michelle Cantrell [00:42:01]:
That’s great.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:42:02]:
I. Yeah, I don’t know if you had more you wanted to share about the positive social interaction. It just got me really thinking about.

Michelle Cantrell [00:42:09]:
No, I think those are good points, especially like the dancing and, you know, I mean, sometimes, you know, I mean, ideally, obviously, we want to have a friend to interact with. You know, their social baseline theory, which suggests that connection with another actually makes hard tasks a little less hard. And so, you know, there’s a lot of scientific evidence that shows how important those connections are.

But short of that, maybe, you know, if, if you’re new to a city and you don’t know anybody, maybe it’s just going and being around bodies. We are social creatures and we need to be around bodies. That’s why we know that Covid had such a horrible impact in the way that it did. So, yeah, just finding people to be around and then another one is a good old fashioned cry that, you know, that I think being able to just have that release, I mean, there is a release that comes from crying and I once heard this great interview, I think it was with the producers or writers. I can’t remember now.

Michelle Cantrell [00:43:12]:
It was a while ago, who created Hadestown, which I’ve not seen yet, but one of them, they were the interviewer saying, oh, gosh, this one song just made me cry. And the guest said, I don’t believe music makes you cry. I believe music lets you cry. And I loved that message.

And I think about it. For some people, it might be music, for some people, it might be tv or movies. But it can be like, maybe I’m not going to just cry on my own, but maybe actually seeking out something that will let me cry. And maybe if you ever seen Marley and me, find me the person that doesn’t cry in Marley and me.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:43:50]:
Yeah. Yes. Yeah, I’m with you.

Michelle Cantrell [00:43:55]:
Yeah. And so, you know, just finding ways to get that emotional release and then, you know, another one is creative expression. Right. If you think about being in fight or flight mode, there’s not a lot of room for us to stop in the moment. We’re being chased by a lion and say, you know, that lion’s really pretty. I think I want to paint it. And so when we can engage in creative expression, it can be another way of communicating to our body that we’re actually not in danger.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:44:24]:
I love that I have. I’ve yet to do this, but I would love to do, like, art therapy one day. I remember, like, I remember how helpful that was when I was going through a grief process to paint and draw and stuff. And so I love that. That’s, I guess, included in this list of what can be really helpful to help regulate and move from a stress response back to a, I guess, a more neutral response.

Michelle Cantrell [00:45:00]:
Right. And remembering in the process, it is not about the product or the outcome, because I think a lot of people might not do that because they’re like, well, I don’t know how to paint.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:45:09]:
Doesn’t matter.

Michelle Cantrell [00:45:11]:
Doesn’t matter.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:45:12]:
Yes.

Michelle Cantrell [00:45:13]:
The goal is that regulation piece. The goal is to access parts of your brain and bring on, you know, kind of get that balance again between sympathetic and parasympathetic activation. It is not about making the prettiest painting or playing an instrument perfectly or whatever it is.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:45:32]:
That is a good reminder.

Michelle Cantrell [00:45:34]:
Some of us may or may not be recovering perfectionists that sometimes don’t engage in some of these things because they don’t like the outcomes.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:45:41]:
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I’m thinking you’ve given us so much, Michelle. Like, we. I’m just thinking. I think anybody listening to this is going to have so much that they can take away from just from understanding, like, what’s going on. If I’m feeling incredibly overwhelmed, how I can really concrete skills and tips that they could do to try to help them feel less overwhelmed and less stressed out.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:46:10]:
How to think about it in terms of their relationship. I’m wondering if you have any, like, final words of wisdom or final tips or takeaways for people who might be listening that you’d really want them to know.

Michelle Cantrell [00:46:28]:
Yeah, I think just as you’re working on that co regulation piece and the self regulation, first of all, again, coming back to the perfection piece, nobody’s going to be perfect.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:46:39]:
Yeah.

Michelle Cantrell [00:46:40]:
And I’m a big believer in do overs. And either sometimes I might say something and I hear myself say it and then I think, oh, that came out completely wrong. Can I please try again? Or if my partner says something that lands wrong, giving our partners the benefit of the doubt and having an opportunity for a do over, knowing none of us are going to get it right all the time. So that’s a big thing I’d love to send your listeners home with, so to speak, and really doing our best when we are feeling our hurt, to express it without assumptions or judgment about our partner.

Because at the end of the day, no matter how well we know our partners, we still have no idea what’s happening on the inside for them. And we make all kinds of speculations and conjectures. Well, you must not do that because you don’t love me or, you know, whatever it is, or you must, you must not do that because you’re lazy. That is including a judgment, rather than saying, here’s the thing that happened, and here’s what I am feeling right now.

Michelle Cantrell [00:47:54]:
Simple, simple words like, I am sad, not. And I see this all the time, especially when couples come in the. In the beginning and we ask them to try and focus on what they’re feeling. Well, I’m feeling my husband’s a jerk.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:48:07]:
Yeah. Facts versus opinions.

Michelle Cantrell [00:48:12]:
Right? Right. And no feelings in that at all. Right?

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:48:14]:
Yes.

Michelle Cantrell [00:48:16]:
And so it’s. It’s. It’s starting that practice of going inward and looking within before you start with the between.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:48:26]:
I love that. Go inward before you start with between. Yeah. Okay. Well, I’m so grateful that you were willing to come on this podcast. I’m thinking there might be people here who are maybe in California where your practice is, or maybe in another state where you’re licensed in that they might be interested in learning more about, like, your services or how to find you or if they have questions. How could someone go about working with you if they wanted to?

Michelle Cantrell [00:49:02]:
Yeah. The best way I can be found is at our website, my practice website, which is centerforgrowthandconnection.com, which I know is a mouthful, but at least it’s easy to remember that’s the name of the practice without the. It’s just centerforgrowthinconnection.com. and there is information about myself as well as my team member and the areas that we specialize in and anything else somebody wants to learn about me.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:49:33]:
Okay, great. I will be making sure to include links to that in the show notes for anybody who wants to work, work with Michelle. And if I’m just remembering, it’s California, Virginia, and DC. Yes, that’s right. Okay. Yeah, great. Well, thank you so much. All right.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:49:52]:
For being here, liz.

Michelle Cantrell [00:49:54]:
It was fun. I know we kind of went over our time goal. I just get really jazzed up about this stuff and I could talk about it all day long.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:50:02]:
Yes, that’s totally fine if we go over time. I’m just so glad people will get so much from this.

Michelle Cantrell [00:50:08]:
Well, thank you. I appreciate it, Liz.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky [00:50:19]:
As part of this special series on attachment in relationships, I created the ARE quiz. ​ This quiz uses the brief accessibility, responsiveness, and engagement scale, which I used in my own dissertation research and I use with each couple when I start working with them in couples counseling.

This quiz helps you and your partner know how secure your relationship is, the level of distress you’re in, when you should be considering marriage counseling, and what sort of behaviors you both can work on to help promote the security of your attachment bond. Make sure to check out the show notes to download a copy of the quiz. While I am a therapist, this podcast is for educational purposes only and is not considered therapy, and it should also not be a replacement for therapy. If you think you need a professional of any kind, you should definitely of go find one. Until next time.